Election 2015

[des8]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Quite frankly you sound as if you hate assisting those who, for whatever reason, need help.
Yes there are those who take advantage, but a tiny minority. It happens.

In the fifties the cry was "I'm all right Jack" and applied to the unions.
Now looks as if we should apply it to SOME of the bosses who resent helping others (a tiny minority I hope)

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Have you read the thread, des8?
Can I refer you to post 11?
If you think that's a tiny minority, I'm in the wrong Forum:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...ical-summaries

there were 5.1 million working age benefit claimants at August 2014 – a decrease of 351,000 in the year to August 2014
the number of working age claimants of ESA and incapacity benefits totals 2.51 million in August 2014, an increase of 67,000 in the year since August 2013
the number of lone parents claiming Income Support decreased by 27,000 to 471,000 in the year to August 2014
at August 2014, there were 2.24 million claimants of Pension Credit (2.71 million including partners)
at August 2014, the total number of people claiming Housing Benefit was 4.88 million
at the end of January 2015, the early estimate of working age lone parents on Income Support was 450,000
at the end of January 2015 the working age early estimates of ESA and incapacity benefits (ESA, Incapacity Benefit and Severe Disablement Allowance) claimants was 2.52 million (rounded to the nearest 5,000)

[MIKE770]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Debt levels among single parents up 105%
Tenants hit by £50m rent rise as social housing converted to ‘affordable’ homes

[Kati]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Have you read the thread, des8?
Can I refer you to post 11?
If you think that's a tiny minority, I'm in the wrong Forum:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...ical-summaries

there were 5.1 million working age benefit claimants at August 2014 – a decrease of 351,000 in the year to August 2014
the number of working age claimants of ESA and incapacity benefits totals 2.51 million in August 2014, an increase of 67,000 in the year since August 2013
the number of lone parents claiming Income Support decreased by 27,000 to 471,000 in the year to August 2014
at August 2014, there were 2.24 million claimants of Pension Credit (2.71 million including partners)
at August 2014, the total number of people claiming Housing Benefit was 4.88 million
at the end of January 2015, the early estimate of working age lone parents on Income Support was 450,000
at the end of January 2015 the working age early estimates of ESA and incapacity benefits (ESA, Incapacity Benefit and Severe Disablement Allowance) claimants was 2.52 million (rounded to the nearest 5,000)

and (again) ... for every report that shows the benefits system is being defrauded on a massive scale, there's another that shows the opposite - http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-fraud-support

Clearly fraud needs to be dealt with, but our fixation on it distracts from a much bigger picture: that the vast majority of benefits go to ordinary people who genuinely need the support. These are people who may be seriously ill or disabled, caring for a loved one, unable to find work or struggling to get by on low pay. For many of them benefits are a lifeline.

Of course you wouldn’t think so to listen to the public debate; and this is both a cause and consequence of our collective outrage at fraud. Yet what the coverage rarely ever tells you is that benefit fraud represents just a tiny fraction of the total benefits bill and has done for years. According to figures out this week, fraud accounted for just 70p out of every £100 spent on benefits last year.

Nevertheless, previous research shows that the public perception of fraud is 34 times higher than the reality. It’s an emotive subject. Nobody likes to think of their taxes going to fraudsters. It outrages our sense of fair play and our deep sense of who deserves what and why.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/fran...b_6503946.html

"Are you fed up with your hard-earned wages being given as 'benefits' to individuals in society who don't deserve them?""Zero tolerance against the work shy, freeloaders and benefit cheats drinking cheap ale, lapping up the sun rays well we slog it out in the offices and factories..."
"Keeping Jeremy Kyle on the tele..."
The inaccuracies I read online about people on benefits can sometimes be amusing, but also sometimes makes me quite angry. I am on Job Seekers' Allowance and have been for the best part of three years, but I do not drink ale, have not had a holiday abroad for over four years and have never appeared on The Jeremy Kyle Show. These particular quotes come from groups on Facebook against people on benefits, but I have read similar comments on internet forums, on comments to newspaper articles and even heard people say things like this in person. I think in the last few years since the recession the comments about people on benefits have got nastier and more frequent. I think this has been fuelled by both politicians and the media.

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-...-benefit-fraud

CAS is against fraud. It’s wrong. It impacts on our overall economy. Unfortunately it occurs in all economies and in all parts of the economy. Benefit fraud is a problem, however it seems to get more attention than other fraud, so we thought we’d set out the position within the UK’s finances.

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-polit...g-corporations

Undue focus on "scrounging" is draining public support for welfare at a time when a proper safety net is desperately needed by millions of vulnerable people.

https://www.latentexistence.me.uk/pe...rs-arent-they/

The Department of Work and Pensions keeps official statistics on levels of benefit fraud. Here are the figures showing the total amount of expenditure on benefits that is fraudulently claimed.

• Income support fraud: 2.8%
• Job Seekers Allowance fraud: 2.5%
• Housing Benefit fraud: 1.3%
• Incapacity benefit fraud: 0.5%
• Disability Living Allowance fraud: 0.5%

Total benefit fraud is estimated to be 0.7%. Total error by claimants is also 0.7%. And error by officials? Another 0.7%. So administration error costs the same as fraud. That’s not to mention the 0.3% error causing underpayments, or the 0.9% (£60 million) that administration errors deprive incapacity claimants of.
Ultimately, the vilification by the tabloids of everyone on benefits and everyone who is sick and disabled is incredibly harmful. Public opinion is shaped by the lies and the twisted numbers put out by the tabloids which cause the public to back the government in cracking down on benefit fraud and in ruthlessly cutting benefits. In the end that causes great hurt and anguish for the vast majority of people that genuinely need the help

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

A good post Kati. I must admit I'd never read the comments you listed. I suppose Amethyst's comment about perception is...perceptive.
My perception is my reality and that was why I posted the actual statistics from the Government's own figures.
There should be no spin on those statistics.
Are you really saying that we have 5.1 million working age people who wouldn't survive if they didn't get the benefits?
2.51 million disabled folks needing ESA and incapacity benefits?

I just don't believe it.
The Private Sector pays for all of this and yet, we are expected to compete on the world stage.

[Kati]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I'm not trying to change your views [MENTION=49662]sean5302[/MENTION], just trying to 'enlighten' readers to the other side of the argument
The government (October 2014) spent £1m on their last "Benefit fraud" campaign - http://www.theguardian.com/society/s...ts-and-figures - is this money well spent?
In November 2014, research suggested that benefit fraud counted for just 0.7% of total spending on welfare (http://leftfootforward.org/2014/11/b...-figures-show/) while in January 2014 the Welfare Minister, Lord Freud stated categorically that

It is only a small minority who commit fraud.

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25576588)

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Clearly, you're not going to change my view but I can appreciate the sheer ability you displayed in your assessment.
Fraud is defined as the amount that can be proved, beyond reasonable doubt, in a criminal court. There is no such thing as civil fraud.
Given that the Public Sector doles out the benefits but doesn't contribute anything towards paying for them, their incentive is to just minimise their workload and pay out as claimed.
We all have anecdotal evidence of folks who've never done a day's work in their lives, yet live the life of Riley.
I simply find it impossible to believe that we have 5.1 million people who wouldn't survive without benefits, or 2.51 million needing ESA and incapacity benefit. It's ridiculous.
The reports are that 90% of such people, invited to ATOS for assessment, immediately withdraw their claims yet those people are not then investigated for fraud.

[Amethyst]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

The reports are that 90% of such people, invited to ATOS for assessment, immediately withdraw their claims yet those people are not then investigated for fraud.

Never seen a figure of 90%.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...d-fit-for-work

http://helpmeinvestigate.com/welfare...ete-assessment


I think you should read beyond the headlines. ( no offence meant by that )

We all have anecdotal evidence of folks who've never done a day's work in their lives, yet live the life of Riley.

I don't know anyone like that at all.

[Amethyst]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Ref the ''life of Riley'' comment

Random story then '''Working is not worth it' Benefits mum rakes in £70,000 in welfare''

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/387...000-in-welfare

Headlines are very impressive aren't they.

It's not quite as impressive as made out, in the third paragraph ''From October, her catalogue of taxpayer-funded handouts will total £3,905-a-month or a staggering £46,860-a-year.''

Not quite as impressive.

The you dig down deeper, most of it is rent and council tax, and you find she is actually getting £403 tax credits and £394 ESA a month - to run the house and three teenagers = £797 month = £183 a week.

I don't find that particularly excessive and I very much doubt she is living a live of Riley. If she moved house to a cheaper area yes she would be less costly to the tax payer, but she wouldn't notice on her pocket. But she's not 'raking in' £70k a year, if you add up everything she gets and is entitled to it probably does come to £70k, and to be in exactly the same position she is now she would have to earn £70k, that is wrong... and its more to do with how benefits are removed at certain incomes etc. She is right, previous governments made it so that working isn't worth it, particularly when you have children, and that needs to change.

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

"Million new ESA claimants found fit for work" was the headline quoted in your first link.
New claimants only, and there's around a million of them.
What does that imply about the true level of fraudulent claims? It tells me it is far higher than any small minority.
I maintain that, if it were the Private Sector doing the assessments (like ATOS is), since we pay for the claims which were just doled out by the Public Sector, there would be far fewer.
QED the findings. If those million new ESA claimants are not now receiving ESA, are they on their death beds?
How many of them have been prosecuted for fraud / attempted fraud?
My anecdotal evidence tells me the DWP just accepts the claim withdrawal and takes no further action.

Thank you for your "sowing the seeds" post further up. Perception, like beauty, must be in the eye of the beholder.
I must admit that Kati's left-wing links were interesting. Whenever I see Mehdi Hassan from the Huffington Post on tv I wonder whether the lunatics really have taken over the asylum. He makes Owen Jones seem almost normal.

[Amethyst]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

There's no suggestion that those ESA claimants that withdrew claims were fraudulent, a percentage were I expect, but nothing like 90%, returning to work or moving to JSA is more likely.

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

You nipped in with another post while I was typing my response to post 68.

All I can tell you is that I have to pay:
45% of my salary, less personal allowance and a bit at 20% in income tax
12% of much of my salary as NI.
20% VAT on most of my purchases
400% tax on the fuel to drive to work
40% tax on my savings interest, share dividends and suchlike
£2500 council tax
5% tax on the energy to power my house
etc etc.

As I keep saying, all the money spent by the Government only comes from taxes on the Private Sector. There will come a point where we think it's just ridiculous and set up elsewhere. With no Private Sector, there will be no Public Sector.
Like China.
No worky, no eaty.

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

There's no suggestion that those ESA claimants that withdrew claims were fraudulent, a percentage were I expect, but nothing like 90%, returning to work or moving to JSA is more likely.

I understand that ESA pays more than JSA.
£108.15 versus £72.40 per week after assessment.
If that is true and claimants were ineligible for ESA but claimed anyway, isn't that fraudulent?

[Amethyst]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I'm with you on that, hard work and success is punished rather than rewarded and it is wrong. It is changing slowly (VERY slowly).
I'd much rather a flat rate of tax regardless of how much you earn, and the benefits system is too generous, it should NEVER be that it is more beneficial to stay at home than go out to work. But sadly that's how we are at the moment for people particularly with children. But you are wrong to be shouting at people who do have to live on benefits ( and do remember that many 'benefit claimants' are actually on working tax credits to top up their wages as they don't cover a basic standard of living )

[Fred]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I have to write in support of any claimant as most are told to do so in case they qualify or not.

Why does that constitute fraud please ?