Election 2015

[enaid]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Okidoki no harm in a nice debate, no need to ask for personal details to keep the debate going .
The thread is supposed to be about opinions not about our way of life.

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I've enjoyed discussing this with people who hold different views to mine and most of my people.
I certainly wasn't asking for personal details, but was curious as to why someone would hold such divergent views to mine.
I work in the Private Sector and it is the taxes imposed on us that pay for all Public Sector expenditure.

[Kati]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I must admit that Kati's left-wing links were interesting.

left-wing? I didn't realise I was spouting left-wing views :lol: although I do believe in fairness. I paid taxes for many years and think that I am entitled to the benefits I still claim (child tax credits and child benefit). My partner lived and worked in Austria for many years (and paid tax in both Austria and the UK for the whole time) would he not be entitled to claim benefits or receive a state pension when he retires?

I see, and talk to people every day who are living in fear of being "sanctioned" by the DWP (on behalf of our government and the Secretary of State) - because they haven't applied for one or two jobs that their 'personal advisor' has found for them (on top of the 16+ they did apply for), or because they don't see a need to use Universal Jobsmatch to search for jobs when there are plenty of other jobsites that do the same thing. I hear about people who have their benefits stopped because they can walk further than the 20m (higher rate) or 50m (lower rate) allowed in order to claim PIP, but they are not eligible for JSA as they cannot be seen as 'actively seeking work'. That, in my opinion, is unacceptable in the extreme!

If that makes me left-wing, then I suppose I'll have to accept that - although my 'views' are not as "left" as people might believe

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

You're clearly a girl, Kati.
I think, if you read what I wrote, that I never described you as "left-wing".
Your links definitely are though or did I mistake the Huffington Post for the Daily Telegraph?

[Fred]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I don't think so.
My understanding is that a person presents themselves at a local Jobcentre and is interviewed about which benefits they wish to claim.
There is completion of a form upon which the claimant specifies which benefits they seek.
If they claim that they are incapacitated, they are given benefit money equivalent to JSA rates for their age, for a period of up to 13 weeks pending assessment.
If the assessment reveals no grounds for an incapacity claim, my opinion is that they should be prosecuted, rather than just told they are ineligible. Why would someone claim more money than they were entitled to, other than to attempt to obtain extra money by deception?

So you would assume deception based on the ability for/or on behalf of an individual based on/or perhaps in your view incorrectly completing an application assisted by a civil servant ?

[Kati]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

You're clearly a girl, Kati.

well guessed (although not that difficult to come to that decision if you've read some of my other posts here on LB)

I didn't actually accuse you of calling me left wing tho', just said I hadn't realised they (including the links) would be seen that way

K x

[meellis]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I have no problems letting people know I am an heating engineer, I would have mentioned it on other posts. I have customers of all persuasions, religions, race and financial standing and I would like to think I treat them all as individuals. When I lived in the good times pre bankruptcy I would have held views similar to yours Sean because I hadn't realised what hard times could be truly like. There is nothing like a wake up call when you have had a choice of banks all through your life and always sufficient funds to pay the bills and then to suddenly find no bank wants you and paying normal bills are more expensive and time consuming because every company would prefer D/D or bank transfer or card payment. Then you realise this is how others have to live and some without a means to escape.
Some people, rich or poor expect me to buy the parts to fix their heating and supply the labour at the drop of a hat and then give them 30days to pay. I have had so called scroungers scrape together every last penny they have to pay me when finished and people who earn more on interest in a week than I do in a year not want to pay for two months and the other way round. I have turned up to the roughest looking houses and had the warmest welcome and been in mansions where they treat me like I am something the guard dog dragged in. I have been terrorised by radical muslims and radical Christians and roman catholics and also met decent people from all faiths. It has made me realise you don't judge individuals from public perception or stereotypes you judge them from their own singular actions.
There are people out there who feel the world owes them a living, some are born like it and dare I say it some are brought up like it. All parents work hard to make it easier for their offspring is it not surprising when some the offspring find it is still harder than they imagined. You have mentioned that there isn't a bottomless pot of funds for pension and healthcare, I think people are realising that but there are a lot of people who were sold NI, taxes and the NHS as being just that. You of all people must realise it is hard to change some peoples long held beliefs on this, just because its the polar opposite of your thoughts doesn't mean they don't hold on to them just a strongly as yourself.
I was made bankrupt after I paid my staff to sit at home in the snow in 2009/10, the banks didn't want to help me even though my turnover had doubled from £200,000 to £400,000 in two years. Its a decision I made and have to live with but I cant become bitter over it. It made me realise about debt and hard work. I worked hard to build a business and hopefully a future for me and my staff and most of my debt was to do with this it wasn't frivolous luxuries they would maybe have came later when I could well afford them. But I suddenly became a debtor, a bankrupt and to a lot of people that immediately puts me in the wasteful, crooked and frivolous category. In a lot of peoples eyes debtors are only in debt because of their own stupid actions because this is what the media tell them to believe yet if I weathered the storm I would have been viewed as an entrepreneur who had brought jobs to the area some peoples perceptions are that finite.
When I made my comments about benefit street it was based on my working experience. There have been a lot of rogue trader type programmes around which highlight the undesirables in business's like mine. I am not foolish enough to believe these people don't exist but Joe Public believe we are all up to it and I know the cowboys are the minority. The people who made these programmes were asked if they would do the same type of programme on rogue customers but they refused stating that nobody would want to watch it. They know that pushing certain aspects of a programme to the forefront gets viewers but the truth doesn't always, sad fact but when you are paid to gain higher viewing figures then this is what drives the makers.
Another sad fact that people have to realise is that everything has to be paid for somehow, when a supermarket offers a loss leader to entice new customers in they have to claw the money back somewhere else, when somebody signs a cheap energy deal somebody else pays over the odds to cover the short fall, when any government promises funding for something another thing has to suffer. I am no different than you with some of these concerns I just know it is not as plain and simple as you seem to believe.

[Kati]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Our council has just published it's latest plans for the NHS - there is a 'hospital' 5mins walk from my front door that has no A&E dept (but it has an 'urgent care' unit), the labour/maternity ward went down the pan 9yrs ago (although there's a midwifery unit there) and guess what? They're building a NEW hospital 8miles away that will have a state of the art A&E and maternity ward. Why can't they update the one we have?

[EXC]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I work in the Private Sector and it is the taxes imposed on us that pay for all Public Sector expenditure.

Taxes are paid by both those working in the private and public sectors.

The private sector itself contributes very little to the exchequer. VAT receipts alone account for nearly 3 times that of corporation tax. More revenue is derived from arbitrary personal taxes such as fuel and alcohol duty than from corporation tax.

In short the public expenditure is funded by people not business.

[Kati]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Taxes are paid by both those working in the private and public sectors.

The private sector itself contributes very little to the exchequer. VAT receipts alone account for nearly 3 times that of corporation tax. More revenue is derived from arbitrary personal taxes such as fuel and alcohol duty than from corporation tax.

In short the public expenditure is funded by people not business.

Exactly ... I paid tax while I worked, I put money into this country. In fact ... even benefits are taxable, so I paid tax when I was on jobseekers too - JSA, ESA and even the state pension are subject to taxes (https://www.gov.uk/income-tax/taxfre...state-benefits)

[leclerc]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I've decided to mindlessly stick a link to the UK version of FactCheck so that you can spot the BS from the......BS


https://fullfact.org/
(might add that it achieved it's start up money from a crowdfunder website just so that I can add completely irrelevant information into this post )

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Taxes are paid by both those working in the private and public sectors.

The private sector itself contributes very little to the exchequer. VAT receipts alone account for nearly 3 times that of corporation tax. More revenue is derived from arbitrary personal taxes such as fuel and alcohol duty than from corporation tax.

In short the public expenditure is funded by people not business.

No, that's wrong.
If I give you £1 and take back 25p as tax, I've still given you every penny you have.
Public Sector workers contribute no financial wealth to UK plc.
Source and sink, if you remember your "O" level or GCSE Physics.
One produces and the other spends. There would be no Public Sector were it not for the taxes levied on the Private Sector.
VAT and other such taxes are paid from money ultimately extracted only from Private Sector workers.

[meellis]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Another grey area that could be discussed at some point. When there was the debate about whether Jeremy Clarkson should be fired for what he apparently did on Top Gear there were the people who had strong held beliefs that he should be fired because all he does was waste license payers money on pointless trips around the world. These people believed this because they were led to believe that the BBC is totally funded by license money. The real reason the BBC had to think long and hard is the fact that Top Gear actually brings in a lot of revenue through its sales to other network's and countries. I am sure there would be examples that are similar all over the public sector. Even though I understand your point Sean I would still have to say it isn't as clear cut as you would like to think. The other point that I made in an earlier post is that there will never be enough jobs in the sectors that we need for survival so we need to either except that we pay for jobs that are not really so necessary for survival, it is either that or we pay these people to live on benefit street, neither seems to be an option for yourself so maybe your business can generate enough employment for them all.

[mystery1]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

Public Sector workers contribute no financial wealth to UK plc.

They don't pay income tax, council tax, national insurance, vat, VED, fuel tax ? Never buy goods and services which enable those in the private sector to pay more tax or employ others who pay more tax ?

M1

[sean5302]

Re: Election 2015: Conservative benefit cut options leaked

I don't like "grey areas" preferring engineering precision.
My understanding of JC is that he was not "fired". His contract had 3 weeks to run and was not renewed. TG supposedly brings between £50m and £150m to BBC Worldwide, the commercial arm of the broadcaster, each year. That division earns £1.8Bn each year by selling progs and merchandise, thereby supplementing the £3.7Bn pa licence fee.
Just because JC brought revenue, I could never accept punching a junior employee. Could anyone?
We might as well say Jimmy Savile was a good DJ, Gary Glitter a good singer, so never mind the BBC Paedophile Ring.

Your point about jobs is well made.
I could show you round a modern car plant. Mini Oxford is a very good case study. It used to be part of BL many years ago, employing 28,000 people as BL Cowley.
Today, you will find Minis being made by 1400 ABB robots and 35 Kukas. There are 24 technicians looking after these robots. There are 3000 people in the trim and internal assembly sections working 24,7, 360.
What happened to the 25,000 who used to work there? Who knows.
Why bring someone into the world, give them maybe 17 years schooling and expect them to weld cars together when you can automate the process? You can see where this is going. Ultimately, there will be no manual work and people will share the world's resources.
At present, that's a Star Trek concept, centuries ahead for many people, but not all. When I try and recruit qualified, educated engineers in the UK I have a real problem. We don't produce them compared to the rest of the world. That is what we should be worried about.