Child custody dispute

[Crazy council]

Re: Child custody dispute

At the moment, i woud just make sure they compleate the report before court but try not to push things. What [MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION] said

If there's no supervision there must be no concern that you will harm her.

Really show something. If there was ANY doubt by them at this stage, that would not have happened yet

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

My daughter already has a court appointed guardian and a solicitor and they have both seen how unhappy she is in her dads house. They are giving my daughter the opportunity to speak with the judge on the morning of the hearing.
Do I ask for the hearing of domestic abuse now, or at the 30th August hearing? Thank you so much for your help !!

Daisy,

Click on 'CAP' flow chart (pdf), either open it up or safe to your computer. The flow chart diagram shows the process from 1) initial hearing - 2) domestic abuse hearing - to 3), final hearing. http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=dl129058

My advice is ask the CAFCASS officer about the process for hearing the domestic abuse. If they say there won't be one, at that point is when you say you want one under 12J, as above. The flow chart shows you what should happen under procedure. Otherwise it seems likely you'll be labelled 'domestic abuser'..which will have a negative bearing on you on the final hearing, ie having a right to see your own daughter. It's brilliant that your daughter has a guardian, too.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

My daughter already has a court appointed guardian and a solicitor and they have both seen how unhappy she is in her dads house. They are giving my daughter the opportunity to speak with the judge on the morning of the hearing.
Do I ask for the hearing of domestic abuse now, or at the 30th August hearing? Thank you so much for your help !!

Daisy

If there were serious concerns they would have an interim order ie a temporary order that keeps M under her father's care or stops you having any contact or monitored supervised contact. The fact you have access to M without supervision indicates there's either no interim order or not supervised contact, so this is also good for you.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

My daughter already has a court appointed guardian and a solicitor and they have both seen how unhappy she is in her dads house. They are giving my daughter the opportunity to speak with the judge on the morning of the hearing.
Do I ask for the hearing of domestic abuse now, or at the 30th August hearing? Thank you so much for your help !!

Daisy,

Speaking to the judge on the day of the hearing does not seem adequate - this should be done well before that, just as the lawyers etc will have decided the questions asked before that. In my view, your daughter should be permitted to make a statement with the help of her guardian/ solicitor and not have to rely on her 12 year old memory on the main day in question.

It seem to me like they're rushing everything the fact they said to you 'don't abuse your child' on the recent terms suggest there is a presumption you're viewed as a 'domestic abuser' without even a finding of fact hearing for domestic abuse.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

My daughter already has a court appointed guardian and a solicitor and they have both seen how unhappy she is in her dads house. They are giving my daughter the opportunity to speak with the judge on the morning of the hearing.
Do I ask for the hearing of domestic abuse now, or at the 30th August hearing? Thank you so much for your help !!

12J continues....

Factors to be taken into account when determining whether to make child arrangements orders in all cases where domestic violence or abuse has occurred

35, 12J:

"When deciding the issue of child arrangements the court should ensure that any order for contact will be safe and in the best interests of the child."

"36, 12J.

In the light of any findings of fact the court should apply the individual matters in the welfare checklist with reference to those findings; in particular, where relevant findings of domestic violence or abuse have been made, the court should in every case consider any harm which the child and the parent with whom the child is living has suffered as a consequence of that violence or abuse, and any harm which the child and the parent with whom the child is living, is at risk of suffering if a child arrangements order is made."

"The court should only make an order for contact if it can be satisfied that the physical and emotional safety of the child and the parent with whom the child is living can, as far as possible, be secured before during and after contact, and that the parent with whom the child is living will not be subjected to further controlling or coercive behaviour by the other parent."


"Directions as to how contact is to proceed

38, 12J

"Where the court has made findings of domestic violence or abuse but, having applied the welfare checklist, nonetheless considers that direct contact is safe and beneficial for the child, the court should consider what, if any, directions or conditions are required to enable the order to be carried into effect and in particular should consider –

(a) whether or not contact should be supervised, and if so, where and by whom;

(b) whether to impose any conditions to be complied with by the party in whose favour the order for contact has been made and if so, the nature of those conditions, for example by way of seeking intervention (subject to any necessary consent);

(c) whether such contact should be for a specified period or should contain provisions which are to have effect for a specified period; and

(d) whether it will be necessary, in the child's best interests, to review the operation of the order; if so the court should set a date for the review consistent with the timetable for the child, and shall give directions to ensure that at the review the court has full information about the operation of the order."

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

My daughter already has a court appointed guardian and a solicitor and they have both seen how unhappy she is in her dads house. They are giving my daughter the opportunity to speak with the judge on the morning of the hearing.
Do I ask for the hearing of domestic abuse now, or at the 30th August hearing? Thank you so much for your help !!

39, at 12J

"Where the court does not consider direct contact to be appropriate, it shall consider whether it is safe and beneficial for the child to make an order for indirect contact."

The reasons of the Court

40, at 12J

"In its judgment or reasons the court should always make clear how its findings on the issue of domestic violence or abuse have influenced its decision on the issue of arrangements for the child. In particular, where the court has found domestic violence or abuse proved but nonetheless makes an order which results in the child having future contact with the perpetrator of domestic violence or abuse, the court should always explain, whether by way of reference to the welfare check-list the factors in paragraphs 36 and 37 or otherwise, why it takes the view that the order which it has made is safe and beneficial for the child."

This Practice Direction is issued by the President of the Family Division, as the nominee of the Lord Chief Justice, with the agreement of the Lord Chancellor."

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

My daughter already has a court appointed guardian and a solicitor and they have both seen how unhappy she is in her dads house. They are giving my daughter the opportunity to speak with the judge on the morning of the hearing.
Do I ask for the hearing of domestic abuse now, or at the 30th August hearing? Thank you so much for your help !!

Even if they stopped all contact with your daughter, your daughter can make an application for contact indirectly, ie probably though 'supervised contact'. See above paragraph 39, at 12J. http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...art_12j#para24

This is serious Daisy! Look at all the provisions above it's like a legal practice minefield - you need a lawyer to make sure these things/ provisions are covered for your benefit/ answered. Even if you got a legal aid lawyer and they're not very good, I/ we (other legalbeagles) could tell you what you say to make sure yours rights are protected (due process), as supposed to denying you your rights (undue process). I have only done a law degree and have never practiced in my life, but I am a lateral thinker (been told I think differently in a positive way, to other people) so if am asking questions so should a legal professional.

[Daisyberwick]

Re: Child custody dispute

Thank you for your honesty. I will take any help that comes my way. I haven't touched my daughter since February and am receiving help from the psychiatric hospital for my emotions.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

Thank you for your honesty. I will take any help that comes my way. I haven't touched my daughter since February and am receiving help from the psychiatric hospital for my emotions.

Before February 2016, when was the last time you touched your daughter? If your daughter played up again, how exactly would you deal with it, assuming the facts were similar to last time? This is what the court is likely to look at, ie your ability to manage your reactions to M's volatile behaviour. M may be that way because of her seeing you domestically abused during your marriage. It may not be her fault that M is 'naughty,' therefore. Which recommendations, if any, has the psychiatric hospital made for your custody issue? I want to get an idea of what the social worker sees when she sees you and the home you provide for you and your daughter. Without knowing some details it's difficult to provide specific advice. Daisy, have you been diagnosed with a mental health condition in particular? May I ask your age broadly - for instance are you in the age brackets (30-40 years), young or older?

[Daisyberwick]

Re: Child custody dispute

Hi. I'm 47. I'm a good mum. I don't do anything in my life that I wouldn't want her to see. She is a happy, healthy, bright and beautiful girl. She has a very good circle of friends and is a sensible girl. I praise her at every opportunity. I encourage her and I advise her well. She is loving and funny and she knows her own mind. What happened with the curtain pole was a freak occurrence. It's the only time in my whole life that I've used something to hit someone with. The other two incidences were with my hand and left no bruises. These happened at a time of fear and confusion. I was being forced to send her to a place where groups of girls were telling her to kill herself. I had no way out and I was very scared. There have been many times since February that she has been equally horrific, but I've walked away from her. I actually find it quite easy to walk away from her or give her the cold shoulder Untill she apologised or redeems herself. My mental diagnosis is depression and low mood, but is under control with medication.
My home is modern and clean and her bedroom is newly decorated. All my daughters needs are met. She sees the opticians and dentist regularly and she sees the GP when she needs to. Her diet and weight are healthy.

[Diana M]

Re: Child custody dispute

Daisy, if you find any questions put to you on this thread intrusive or unsettling you can feel free not to answer them. You are not being cross-examined. Your age is definitely not relevant!

Your ability as a mother is also not in doubt especially since none of us know the full history.

Your daughter is home today which is what matters most to you.

Have a lovely weekend

Di

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

Daisy, if you find any questions put to you on this thread intrusive or unsettling you can feel free not to answer them. You are not being cross-examined. Your age is definitely not relevant!

Your ability as a mother is also not in doubt especially since none of us know the full history.

Your daughter is home today which is what matters most to you.

Have a lovely weekend

Di

Di

I totally agree with you in that Daisy can leave out anything she doesn't want to say. This is why I ask for the age broadly, just to provide an idea what the social worker sees. For instance, a younger mum were Daisy to have had her younger may be presumed to be too young and inexperienced.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

Hi. I'm 47. I'm a good mum. I don't do anything in my life that I wouldn't want her to see. She is a happy, healthy, bright and beautiful girl. She has a very good circle of friends and is a sensible girl. I praise her at every opportunity. I encourage her and I advise her well. She is loving and funny and she knows her own mind. What happened with the curtain pole was a freak occurrence. It's the only time in my whole life that I've used something to hit someone with. The other two incidences were with my hand and left no bruises. These happened at a time of fear and confusion. I was being forced to send her to a place where groups of girls were telling her to kill herself. I had no way out and I was very scared. There have been many times since February that she has been equally horrific, but I've walked away from her. I actually find it quite easy to walk away from her or give her the cold shoulder Untill she apologised or redeems herself. My mental diagnosis is depression and low mood, but is under control with medication.
My home is modern and clean and her bedroom is newly decorated. All my daughters needs are met. She sees the opticians and dentist regularly and she sees the GP when she needs to. Her diet and weight are healthy.

This is brilliant, because this is what you're going to say at your 'domestic abuse' hearing. You are a woman with 'life experience' who knows how to look after her daughter, ie you're not a young girl who doesn't know what she's doing. You simply made a mistake when the pole accidentally hit M. It was simply an isolated incident besides M also falling back on to the door frame. This is 'circumstantial' and is not evidence of abuse. It was unforeseeable, to you, that M would have fallen back against the door frame and had you known it would or could have happened, you would have prevented it. Do not admit to 'domestic abuse' on no occasion from now on.

Daisy, have you completed your own statement yet for the court? You and M (your daughter) both need a written statement in my view, as you both need to be prepared well in advance. So in my view you should both write some stuff on paper, but concentrate on your good points as a mother. Lawyers are likely to coach their client for hearings of these type but since you don't have one, you need to practice your version of events. Good practice and to stop any claims by the court or SW of a conflict of interest arising, in my view, is for M to produce her own statement with assistance only from her guardian/ legal representative. So, M should ask her guardian to assist her to complete a written statement of what she is going to say. With 12J, M's legal representative should make sure that M in the judge's chambers (office) is familiar with the questions that he/ she (the judge) is going to ask her. Do not let M see write your statement. This way, you're showing the court that you're not 'emotionally manipulative' or emotionally abusive. You will be cross examined at the hearing as the social worker does not want to be seen as not doing a good job or unfairly making allegations of domestic abuse against you, as their (SW) view you are guilty already. This is what you need to tell the domestic abuse hearing. You need to start thinking like a lawyer if you don't have one already. Start pulling apart SW report when you get your copy of it. You want a copy of every single report or question that is going to be asked. You are a litigant in person (self represented) at this time. You can ask a good friend to help you. A McKenzie friend - that you pay for - may not be anywhere near your own ability to representative yourself.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

Hi. I'm 47. I'm a good mum. I don't do anything in my life that I wouldn't want her to see. She is a happy, healthy, bright and beautiful girl. She has a very good circle of friends and is a sensible girl. I praise her at every opportunity. I encourage her and I advise her well. She is loving and funny and she knows her own mind. What happened with the curtain pole was a freak occurrence. It's the only time in my whole life that I've used something to hit someone with. The other two incidences were with my hand and left no bruises. These happened at a time of fear and confusion. I was being forced to send her to a place where groups of girls were telling her to kill herself. I had no way out and I was very scared. There have been many times since February that she has been equally horrific, but I've walked away from her. I actually find it quite easy to walk away from her or give her the cold shoulder Untill she apologised or redeems herself. My mental diagnosis is depression and low mood, but is under control with medication.
My home is modern and clean and her bedroom is newly decorated. All my daughters needs are met. She sees the opticians and dentist regularly and she sees the GP when she needs to. Her diet and weight are healthy.

The SW will argue that your 'psychiatric problems' will interfere in your ability to raises your daughter. Now, turn this around and ask the social worker to define what she means by 'psychiatric.' You can refer to the International Classification of Diseases (ICD, version 10) for specifics. Mental health problems are psychiatric but so are psychopathic personalities and other dangerous personalities to society (people), so they are not the same thing, clearly. The spectrum of ICD varies from psychopaths to the more common situational-specific 'anxiety/ depression etc. Then when you have defined psychiatric for her (SW), ask her to apply the facts to yourself. This is where the SW will look incompetent.

Keep referring to sources....refer to evidence for Family Procedure Rules. Stay objective, be courteous, smile, say please, thank you when you're communicating with the SW whilst they're providing oral evidence. Ask your questions to the SW or CAFCASS officer (where applicable) in an open way, do not 'ask leading questions. Do not react emotionally - think of someone else in your shoes who is not you before you answer as this person is not emotionally affected so will not react with emotion impulsively. A leading question is noted because it's often unfair and directs the respondent using only the information provide to purposely limit their answer (ie like sending someone down a no entry). Leading question: 'As a SW, isn't it true that you have no interest in my daughter living with me and just have your own personal vendetta against me?' Wouldn't you say.. leading.. Can you please tell me, probably not leading. In your own words.. likely not leading. May I ask why you believe....likely not leading.

Try not to ask open ended questions either if you just require a simple yes or no. Open ended: 'what evidence does the state have that I have 'allegedly' domestically abused M?' Closed question: Answering a simple yes or no, have you or has any one else actually witnessed myself abusing M on any occasion other than what you 'perceive' (means her own view, not actual with everyone one else) as the alleged incidents that the court already knows about?

When you answer a question and you know it's not fair, you could either answer it broadly or avoid the question. SW question: 'Daisy, I know you 'seem' to love your daughter, but let's face it even one or two incidents of abuse prove otherwise, doesn't it? Daisy says: 'Well this court is here to make a determination as to whether a person where they're 'accused' of 'domestic abuse' has done what 'you' view as that very thing. Alternatively, Daisy says, domestic abuse is seemingly very broad so the state 'could' easily misinterpret 'domestic abuse' for reasonable chastisement, in general of course, which is a right for the natural free citizen in this country. SW: no, Daisy, you know full well I was talking about you and not everybody else.' Daisy says, 'oh well in that case, it's for the court based on the provisions of 12J., to decide that as I am clearly not qualified to answer that question as the court wouldn't want self to provide incriminate evidence.

[Daisyberwick]

Re: Child custody dispute

Just to let you all know, I have legal representation. This came as a surprise to me after telling the cafcass lady who I've been trying to get(without success) Helen (cafcass) told me she often works with that particular solicitor. Suddenly two days ago they just phoned me up and told me they'd take my case, no more questions asked. So, I was feeling quite positive Untill this morning when the social worker gave me the section 37 report. She has recommended that my daughter go live with her dad. I went into panick mode and took the report to the solicitor. They are currently trying to get my daughter a hearing with the judge. What is the likelihood of the judge listening to my daughter over the social worker?