Acknowledge of Service without a Particulars of Claim - CCMCC

[Ssssssssss]

Hi all, i have an open query about how to deal with a preliminary hearing in the message above as it does not have any requests for information. Just simply states it is to identify issues, the need for expert evidence and required directions. Any thoughts on this would be great BUT i also have a query regarding representation.

1. My dad and mum are the defendants. My dad cannot attend as he has an operation and this shouldn't make much difference because my mum can attend. i wish to speak on her behalf though.

What i don't understand though is that we have received a proposed notice of allocation to small claims. The preliminary hearing has been scheduled before FINAL notice of allocation. So can i assume that the PROPOSED noticed stands and the preliminary hearing will be dealt with as a small claim ? The reason i ask this is that i know that i have a right to speak on my mums behalf in small claims but i believe its a bit more complicated on the other tracks.

Please let me know - id really appreciate some guidance as i presume i will need to send a letter to the court as soon as possible ?

[Ssssssssss]

Hi all,

I've just drafted some letters to the court explaining my mum and dads situation about attendence so hopefully that all works out.

I'd still really like some help on what i need to take and prepare for the preliminary hearing if anyone can help with the queries above i posted ?

[pt2537]

Sorry misread the post, thought it said your mum and dad wouldnt be attending, ignore me

[Ssssssssss]

Sorry misread the post, thought it said your mum and dad wouldnt be attending, ignore me

So my dad definitely cant go. My mum can and the jist of my letter to court is that, i have, as her daughter, been dealing with the issues since they started and because its proposed as allocated to small claims even though it hasnt received a final allocation, can my daughter speak on my behalf. I've then explained that I work in IT and have been dealing with everything so far with mums authorisation. Does that sound ok ?


In terms of prelimiary hearing. We dont know how to prepare - should we sent a bundle in with the letters regarding the issues that were sent back and forth to the other side ?

And our biggest issues is regarding using experts and the fact that we think the other side are trying to use someone they know although we have no proof.

But mainly, i just dont how to prepare fully.

[Ssssssssss]

We have had our preliminary hearing.

Didnt start well given the judge had had his bathroom done by our builders some years ago !! He said that we could carry on today if we wanted to or swap judges, so we carried on. Then he said the case will transfer to another judge after today.

Judge didnt want to hear our issues with the claimants experts independence unfortunately.

He said

1. - I have to write a schedule of issues
2. - The other side has to respond to that schedule of issues
3. - We then have to pick an expert and if we cant pick one, we have to write to the court and the court will pick one of the 6 submitted ( 3x builders side, 3x Our side).

Said that the expert MUST be a surveyor or official body but it absolutely could not be joe bloggs down the street builder. It must be official.

I told him that we had concerns over the independence of the experts that might be submitted on the other side and that many builders we have found know our dodgy builder. The judge said it doesn't matter because the expert cant be joe bloggs builder down the street.

Anyway, we therefore couldn't get our pick of expert or sway the judge to pick from 2 of ours and 1 of the other sides.

Any advice now ? About writing the schedules or about making sure we get our expert ? We know the other side wont agree any of ours and vice versa so it will come down to a judge i am sure.

[pt2537]

We have had our preliminary hearing.

Didnt start well given the judge had had his bathroom done by our builders some years ago !! He said that we could carry on today if we wanted to or swap judges, so we carried on. Then he said the case will transfer to another judge after today.

Judge didnt want to hear our issues with the claimants experts independence unfortunately.

He said

1. - I have to write a schedule of issues
2. - The other side has to respond to that schedule of issues
3. - We then have to pick an expert and if we cant pick one, we have to write to the court and the court will pick one of the 6 submitted ( 3x builders side, 3x Our side).

Said that the expert MUST be a surveyor or official body but it absolutely could not be joe bloggs down the street builder. It must be official.

I told him that we had concerns over the independence of the experts that might be submitted on the other side and that many builders we have found know our dodgy builder. The judge said it doesn't matter because the expert cant be joe bloggs builder down the street.

Anyway, we therefore couldn't get our pick of expert or sway the judge to pick from 2 of ours and 1 of the other sides.

Any advice now ? About writing the schedules or about making sure we get our expert ? We know the other side wont agree any of ours and vice versa so it will come down to a judge i am sure.

Did he say you have to file a scott schedule? Is that what he ordered?

[Ssssssssss]

No he didn't use those words. He said I need to write a schedule of issues and I said what would that be like a table. He said it would be the issue and a description of the issue.

Then the other side would need to put their response to each issue.

Then all the defence, particulars, counterclaim and this schedule of issues (so my list of issues with builders response) would be sent to an expert. He said expert can't be Joe blog builder. Must be surveyor or architect.

We suggested tile association in the meeting but other side suggested bikbbi. But we have had serious run ins with that organisation over time and we suspect builder may know someone there. Although we have no proof.

But anyway, so if we aren't able to agree an expert, we submit 3, they submit 3. Judge picks one of the six. Buy given his bad workmanship, surely we would be allowed to challenge a report if it doesn't reflect reality!?

Should I put absolutely everything into my list of issues/descriptions? Eg I've said they have not conformed to British standards and tile association standards for tiling. Should I list why I think that (given the other side are manipulating snippets of the standard to suit their narrative)

[Ssssssssss]

Did he say you have to file a scott schedule? Is that what he ordered?

OK so we have the full order from the judge now and it say

The defendants to by x date and time file with court and send copy to claimants a schedule setting out each item of alleged faulty workmanship on defective goods supplied together with the remedial cost of each, giving each a number.

The claimant do by x file with the court and send a copy to the defendants a schedule in reply to each using the same numbers by way of reference.

The parties then agree a single joint expert xyz.. Then when the expert report is created, ask the judge for further directions.

SO

I can write a schedule but i would not have a clue about each items remedial costs as I think the court has failed to realise that
1. the wrong tiles and goods were supplied (contractual issue)
2. that the method of fixing the tiles effectively means that it all has to come out.
3. The quotes we got do not split out each defect and are effectively new quotes because none of the builders said they would patch up the work as they would not accept liability for someone elses work.

How the heck can we split out each item ? And I only have effectively a week to do that. I can get a list of issues done by then but i don't have a clue how to put a monetary figure against each item.

[jaguarsuk]

Okay, so if the builders have provided itemised quotes then you will be able to explain the defect and apply a cost of those.

Any issues you do not have a quote for you are going to have to get quotes to apply a cost.

[pt2537]

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...-schedule-note

[Ssssssssss]

Hi jaguarsuk,. The quote the builder (the other side), gave us had itemised things but in the cost column it just said 0. Then he gave an overall cost only.

Ok. Sounds like this is going to be a lot more work.

If I can't get a builder in in time to get me the separated costs, then should I just send it as is or error an explanation against each item that I couldn't separate the cost?

[jaguarsuk]

Yeah that’s not going to sit well with the court, they asked for itemised by item not a total.

You need to do your best to comply with the order of the court or else contact the court to ask for an extension stating the reason why?

[pt2537]

In building disputes a scott schedule is normally used, im surprised if the Court hasnt asked for that, which allows you to input your issues, the costs you have, and then the builder gets his chance to reply, and at trial the Judge gives his ruling on each point.

I posted a link above on these schedules and how they are used. I agree with Jag that you need to comply with the order, if you cant get a builder to quote in time then why not look at individual trades, im dealing with a building dispute at the moment and we have individual quotes, where we dont have a quote we have simply put TBC in the scott schedule

[Ssssssssss]

In building disputes a scott schedule is normally used, im surprised if the Court hasnt asked for that, which allows you to input your issues, the costs you have, and then the builder gets his chance to reply, and at trial the Judge gives his ruling on each point.

I posted a link above on these schedules and how they are used. I agree with Jag that you need to comply with the order, if you cant get a builder to quote in time then why not look at individual trades, im dealing with a building dispute at the moment and we have individual quotes, where we dont have a quote we have simply put TBC in the scott schedule

Hi pt2537 and Jaguarsuk

Thanks for coming back to me.

So pt2537 i guess what the judge has asked for is pretty much a scott schedule as he has asked for list of issues, cost and then this needs to be sent to builder for him to input his reply and cost next to it.

So if i can give an example of one issue - this might help to make me understand how i could input that.

So there is one broken tile in the window reveal. To replace this tile properly, the underlying and fundamental issues with the tiling and layout need to be rectified and then the broken tile can be rectified after that. So the tiler used dot and dab tiling which is not industry standard and all the window reveals have been bumped out with adhesive unnecessarily.

So to rectify the broken tile if done in isolation, would be to remove the tile and replace it. BUT to do the job properly and rectify the underlying issue BEFORE rectifying the broken tile, you'd have to take the whole reveal out and sort it all out.

So how do you price the item that says "broken tile in window reveal" ???? Sorting underlying issues is £3400. Sorting out just the tile in isolation which technically can't be done properly would be £50.

I think i am going to have to ask the court for more time. I will write to them and see what they say. I've managed to spend some time with a builder today but he and i both got confused about things like the example above.

Any pointers ?

[Ssssssssss]

Hi all,

So on the eve of when the other side are meant to send us their reply to our schedule of issues (10th July), we have just received a letter from a solicitor which is headed without prejudice as to costs.

Is there anyone willing to take a look at the letter at all ?

It covers a lot of things and i know that some of it is just bullying tactics. But they have also offered to settle the case so neither side wins and we drop it.

I can sanitise it and post it if someone is willing to read it and give us an initial thoughts ?