Derby Fire - Guilty

[john 1963]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I also think there will be an appeal but by Philpott and his mate. Neither of them have yet admitted to it so it will be a final roll of the dice although it is a slim one. I can see the police doing a deal with the wife to testify against the other 2, if they did appeal, in return for parole and a new ID on her release.

[leclerc]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I also think there will be an appeal but by Philpott and his mate. Neither of them have yet admitted to it so it will be a final roll of the dice although it is a slim one. I can see the police doing a deal with the wife to testify against the other 2, if they did appeal, in return for parole and a new ID on her release.

I don't see any deal done since the way the judicial system works is that any deal is done BEFORE being found GUILTY and not because one or either of them appealed. The jury convicted based on the evidence before them. Jon, i think it is nonsense to even think that any deal can be done after they have had a trial at public expense and then been found guilty.

[Eloise01]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

The answer to the question leclerc asked lies in the circumstances, and in a jokey - but serious - point that I think Sapphire made. Apoligies if it was someone else! Why would any woman allow a man to act in this way towards her and her children, and why would multiple women do it? One woman helped him with this crime, But evidence shows he has held several women in his "thrall" - quite understandably to most of us, male or female. And this entire crime arose out of his need to control women that he had actually controlled for significant periods of time.

Earlier on our friend Jon was knocking our glorious leaders - or one of them anyway. Yes I am in the hands up for they are crap brigade. But they were elected, by however a slim majority of the people who actually got around to voting. Hitler was actually much more popular and as a democratically elected leader got a lot more of the vote than they ever did! People can be stupendously wrong and can put their trust in people who are worse.

This isn't an excuse, and actually I don't think it should be solely accepted as an explanation, but we live in a male dominated society, and certain classes of people, even more so. People can be weak - or weak minded if you like - and can be so under the influence of others that they actually lose a capacity to think and rationalise for themselves. All the evidence is that Philpott is violent - why would anyone here, male or female, stay with a violent partner? You wouldn't, would you? But people do. It isn't solely women - but it is more commonly women. Think "Stockholm syndrome" but over many years. Eventually, these people - usually women - lose the ability to think rationally. The life they know is normal. However not normal it is. There are literally thousands of documented cases of this - it isn't something made up. It is a traumatic mental illness caused by abuse.

A great number of people on this thread asked how a mother (or father) could do this sort of crime. The fact is that few parents could and fewer mothers could.The secretly recorded evidence from the police shows he knew this - he thought she was the weak link, that she might break first. The act of getting her to perform oral sex on the brother in law was not sexual - it was asserting control of her. It was keeping her in line and under his influence.

Most women in this sort of relationship, severed from it for long enough, do reassert "normal values". At which point I would not lay bets on the length of her life at her own hand. You may not have any sympathy - I am not explaining this to elicit sympathy for her. I agree that what she did was terrible. I do not think that she does not deserve her sentence. I suspect that before long has passed, no sentence a court gives out could be what she sentences herself to. And I know that most people will say that that is ok by them. I am not excusing her or suggesting that she should be "let off" , or even that a court should reduce her sentence. And I haven't walked in those shoes. Neither has anyone else here - although I know a couple of people have walked close to getting in them at times in their lives. I won't say more than that. Life is never black and white. Life is never simple. Life doesn't go as we would wish it to. And sometimes we are very privileged not to have to find out what we might do in different circumstances.

[Eloise01]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I also think there will be an appeal but by Philpott and his mate. Neither of them have yet admitted to it so it will be a final roll of the dice although it is a slim one. I can see the police doing a deal with the wife to testify against the other 2, if they did appeal, in return for parole and a new ID on her release.

That could not and would not happen. You have been watching too many US dramas. She has been convicted and there is no trade off for her conviction in this country.

The judge was very careful - as I suggested she would be. There are no grounds in law to appeal against the manslaughter conviction. The only grounds to appeal is against the sentence and/or tariff. That would not involve the wife at all. Nothing she could say would ever influence an appeal on these grounds.

[jon1965]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Not quite sure I like the turn of phrase "our friend Jon" as it would be the way I would describe other people on a certain other forum as in "my friend dx"

As for talking about our glorious leaders, they are only mine because we live in what is laughingly called a democracy which is not very democratic at all. It saddens me that people can be so foolish as to believe the lies they are told. My late father had the best idea...he would lead a benign dictatorship... and his first act would be to shoot the politicians
Of course when you have the power of the press on your side you can get away with a lot more ..I am talking about my friend Adolf here. He was very skilled at picking on the issues of a nation and finding scapegoats rather than using those people to help get the country out of the mess it was in. The same has happened in other countries, Africa for example with the whites and the asians.

I have been saying for a very long time that we let the government (of any colour) take away our freedoms and manipulate our lives. They are now trying to make political capital out of an evil man and punish all benefit claimants in the process.

I do not have statistics available but I think the incidence of reporting by male abuse victims is even less than that of female, just as in the case of male rape victims v female rape victims. People also have to remember that abuse is not just physical, and a clever abuser can, over a period of time, get their victim under total control. There are many studies that suggest that domestic abuse is an equal opportunity employer

Anyway disembodied rant over

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

She is going to play the 'victim' in all this.The battered bullied woman who had no choice but to go along with whatever he said for fear of her life etcetc...
I've been a 'battered' wife,,I lived with putting up with whatever my old man said to keep the peace until the day he turned on the kids.......then I battered him.
She made him her God,,and those innocent kids paid the ultimate price,,Hell,,one of them wasn't even his child!!
I hope every second of every day she is inside she quakes in fear of the other prisoners,,and I hope she suffers..I hope all of them do.Her 6 kids died.......and she smoked weed and had 3somes whilst they laid on mortuary slabs.

[dogtired]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I also heard that this vile man has been placed on "vulnerable prisoners" list... vulnerable I hope they turn a blind eye next time he goes to the bathroom.

[leclerc]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I also heard that this vile man has been placed on "vulnerable prisoners" list... vulnerable I hope they turn a blind eye next time he goes to the bathroom.

The criminal justice system has to protect the prisoner as well otherwise justice is hardly served if he is murdered after 2 days incarceration cos that is hardly justice.

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Aint that many places to hide in prison is there DT? Vulnerable? My a**e are they vulnerable!! The vulnerable ones were those 6 poor kiddies who thought they were safe in their beds because Daddy & Mummy were there to protect them !! Sickens me to the pit of my stomach.

[dogtired]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

The criminal justice system has to protect the prisoner as well otherwise justice is hardly served if he is murdered after 2 days incarceration cos that is hardly justice.

I appreciate that leclerc but we do get emotional about things like this, did not say I wanted him murdered just "hurt" a little.
From recent history despite being on "suicide watch" Fred West managed to commit suicide.

[leclerc]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Aint that many places to hide in prison is there DT? Vulnerable? My a**e are they vulnerable!! The vulnerable ones were those 6 poor kiddies who thought they were safe in their beds because Daddy & Mummy were there to protect them !! Sickens me to the pit of my stomach.

The definition of a vulnerable prisoner is one that may be attacked in prison so that may include paedophiles, informants, and those who have committed heinous crimes. In may also include prisoners who may be suicidal. There is no specific definition of vulnerable prisoner. And remember that last word: Prisoner. Ian Huntley would have been classed as a vulnerable prisoner. Ultimately, he will not always be classed as that as someone else will be up in court for crimes in which we will use as being a case for bringing back the death penalty. Ultimately, he will almost certainly die in prison since Life with a minumum tariff does not mean that they automatically qualify for parole after that time has elapsed.

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I've already thrown my hat in the ring as being a supporter of Capital Punishment in cases that are rock solid..Huntley..Philpotts etc..and I do appreciate the counter argument to it,,doesn't change my mind,but I respect other peoples right to their opinion as I hope they respect mine.
Prisoners.........all they are really denied is the freedom to go where they want ..they are kept behind walls/bars..
They are fed..watered,clothed,clean...have access to education...excersize...television..radio.
In the 2 cases quoted above,they are getting EVERYTHING they have denied their victims cos they killed them,,those kids didn't even have a chance of growing up,of fulfilling their destiny,,the savages brutally ripped that away from them.
8 children denied life..who knows what they could have become? What has the world been denied of because Huntley & Philpott chose to kill them?
If they get attacked in prison so what?? Tough luck
If they commit suicide..no great loss,,saves the taxes keeping them alive.
I hope they're scared and that they stay scared till the end of their days,,they don't deserve protection . IMHO

[leclerc]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I've already thrown my hat in the ring as being a supporter of Capital Punishment in cases that are rock solid..Huntley..Philpotts etc..and I do appreciate the counter argument to it,,doesn't change my mind,but I respect other peoples right to their opinion as I hope they respect mine.
Prisoners.........all they are really denied is the freedom to go where they want ..they are kept behind walls/bars..
They are fed..watered,clothed,clean...have access to education...excersize...television..radio.
In the 2 cases quoted above,they are getting EVERYTHING they have denied their victims cos they killed them,,those kids didn't even have a chance of growing up,of fulfilling their destiny,,the savages brutally ripped that away from them.
8 children denied life..who knows what they could have become? What has the world been denied of because Huntley & Philpott chose to kill them?
If they get attacked in prison so what?? Tough luck
If they commit suicide..no great loss,,saves the taxes keeping them alive.
I hope they're scared and that they stay scared till the end of their days,,they don't deserve protection . IMHO

there is a cost to the taxpayer because even a crime within the prison system has to be investigated by the police and/or the prison service.
Whether you hate the crime that has been committed or you dislike/hate the person who committed the crime, ultimately, to have the prisoner rot in prison is better than being on the outside. I would add that they do not go out to pubs and clubs and eateries in prison. They are not fed tesco finest either. They are subject to the rules and regulations of the prison in which they are housed and if they choose to break those rules then perhaps they lose their TV's. I'm not saying prison is hard but they are locked away.

Are you locked away in one room? Are you prevented from going where you want and when you want to? Are you forced to live under rules that if you break them you lose a TV?


We can speculate a lot over what the children might have been: they could have been murderers, child rapists, burglars, drug abusers and they could have been good upstanding members of the community. To be blunt, move on from imagining their kids as angels since we are already saying that their parents are manipulative controlling monsters. You learn things in your formative years so please do not assume that their kids might not have fallen from the very same tree. It's a tragedy that they died but if we are going to suggest that their parents are evil then their kids cannot be simply held up as future pillars of the community simply because they were under the age of 18 when they died at the hands of the father's twisted plans.

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

There are other forms of 'imprisonment'that aren't created by breaking the law,so yes,I do know what it's like not to have certain 'freedoms'
As long as they 'play the game' in prison life isn't going to be that tough,as I said,they have access to everything except the choice to leave.
And as for the kids...none of us will ever know now will we? I wasn't 'assuming' anything

Oh...and they are hardly 'locked in one room'.....they aren't (to the best of my knowledge but am happy to be proven wrong) on 24hr lockdown,,they should be,,they don't deserve to see the light of day ever again but I'm pretty sure some legislation somewhere will entitle them to the right to fresh air.
And yes,,I am on a soapbox because they are the lowest of the low scum,,they deserve nothing,,and if they must be kept alive their lives should be as dark,miserable and as near to Hell on Earth as is possible.,,but that's only my opinion,I don't expect anyone to like it or agree with me

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

After nearly having to gouge my eyes out for looking at the DM. George Osbourne should resign if he made the reported comments. How dare he suggest that that benefits cause this. If he had his way benefits would kill far more people

Absolutely! I would say, all those people who are against benefits should spend a year living in a third world country like India, The Philippines, somewhere in Africa, etc. and decide whether that is the way they think this country should go, because without benefits, that's exactly what it would be like, minus the tropical climate, of course, which means it would be a lot harder to survive in tin shacks or under railway bridges. :2w32gd1:

Even those who have a job, a home and a decent lifestyle, they still have to live with barefoot toddlers begging and older kids constantly approaching you to sell you stuff, or to pick your pocket!