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General Election 2010 Thread

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  • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

    Originally posted by scoobydoo View Post
    As the number of people driving between the same dates must have been proprtionately a lot lot higher than those working as miners I would suggest that in percentage terms you were more likely to die as a miner than a road driver.

    Which just goes to show that in politics as in every other area of life figures can be used to prove or disprove any argument.
    No, this is utterly wrong.

    These are not statistics. They are real numbers of real people. They are not percentages per head of population, or proportions, or statistical correlations. They are people who were alive but are now dead and there are a great deal more late drivers than their ever were late miners. It does not have to be proven with any argument, it is what it is.

    Had I wanted to play with figures I would have done. The simple fact of the matter is that more people have died behind the wheel of a car in ten years than have died in mines in fifty years.

    There is no sophistry here, despite others attempting to introduce it.

    ergo you are more likely to die while driving than you are while working as a miner.

    I really don't know how many different ways I can write the same thing.

    It is clear that many people are going to vote for this failed Government just because of some deep rooted prejudice of another party, or even party leader. This is plainly ridiculous.

    Gordon Brown and the Labour party have had thirteen years and have comprehensively failed. They have done incalculable damage to the country and have forced many millions into penury, not to mention the debt now owed by millions of babies too young to talk but who have already inherited the higest public debt in British history.

    Jester, Gordon Brown does not drive because he only has one eye, notwithstanding the fact that he does not need to and far from taxing people off the roads, he has done no such thing. What he has done however, is made life a great deal harder for a great many people, but in particular the less well-off, through his punitive taxation on fuel. Very few people drive for pleasure anymore. We drive because of the parlous state of the public transport system and which, had they wanted to, Labour have had thirteen years to fix.

    Taxes on fuel hit the poorest the hardest because a greater proportion of their disposable income has to be spent on fuel, which costs the same regardless of how much money you have. Fuel is a distress purchase, when you need it you need it. It cannot be put off, it has to be bought then and there.

    Some might argue that Nick Clegg and his "new" party might offer an alternative. Of course, they are hardly new, being able to trace their roots back to the 17th century and the Liberal party was founded in 1859, 40 years before Labour's founding conference in 1900.

    Those thinking the polls are correct should cast their minds back to December 1981 when the Liberal-SDP Alliance scored 50% in a Gallup poll, but took only 23 seats, on a 25% share of the vote, in the 1983 general election. Their more recent experience in power, when rebranded (again) as Liberal Democrats in local authorities suggests they are just, if not more likely, to form coalitions with the Conservatives.

    Comment


    • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

      Lets agree to differ - I agree with you that trying to save an occupation that is proven to be more dangerous than many other occupations seems illogical - but mining and for example steel production or shipyards which in the past also must have been stastically more dangerous than other occupations were very important to the areas in which they were based.

      I m not disagreeing with your statistics but how may people were employed in mining during those 50 years - and how many people have got behind a wheel within those 10 years and for what proportion of the day - so of course the percentage is relevant. thats how insurance companies evaluate risk . Its like saying young men drivers are more likely to die because there were 10000 deaths in 5 years as opposed to 5000 OAP who died. But if there were 4 times as many young men on the road at any one time then proportionally it would be more dangerous if you were an OAP.

      I know what you are saying in that more people die behind the wheel - and I totally think it is something we accept as a fact of life which in my opinion is totally wrong .

      I am still backing Cameron at the moment.
      ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobin...t_to_save.html
      Last edited by scoobydoo; 23rd April 2010, 21:53:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
      "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

      "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


      Comment


      • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

        Originally posted by scoobydoo View Post
        Lets agree to differ - I agree with you that trying to save an occupation that is proven to be more dangerous than many other occupations seems illogical - but mining and for example steel production or shipyards which in the past also must have been stastically more dangerous than other occupations were very important to the areas in which they were based.

        I m not disagreeing with your statistics but how may people were employed in mining during those 50 years - and how many people have got behind a wheel within those 10 years and for what proportion of the day - so of course the percentage is relevant. thats how insurance companies evaluate risk . Its like saying young men drivers are more likely to die because there were 10000 deaths in 5 years as opposed to 5000 OAP who died. But if there were 4 times as many young men on the road at any one time then proportionally it would be more dangerous if you were an OAP.

        I know what you are saying in that more people die behind the wheel - and I totally think it is something we accept as a fact of life which in my opinion is totally wrong .

        I am still backing Cameron at the moment.
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobin...t_to_save.html
        At the risk of labouring the point, I have not used any statistics.

        The numbers are what they are. Statistics apply to groups, not individuals. It is cold comfort for the loved ones of those killed that they were doing something "safer" statistically than something else.

        Cold comfort and meaningless. The fact that more people drive than have ever been miners is irrelevant. Dead is dead.

        Comment


        • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

          I just wanted to say as well that Boris was our local MP for some time and I met him a couple of times. He is not the bumbling fool that he appears and was very helpful to local people who had problems - he often dealt with problems in a very personal way and is missed in this are as an MP - which just goes to show that media perceptions are not always correct.

          And I would add I have voted both Labour and Lib in the past - but will definitely not vote labour this election.
          ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
          Originally posted by Cetelco View Post
          At the risk of labouring the point, I have not used any statistics.

          The numbers are what they are. Statistics apply to groups, not individuals. It is cold comfort for the loved ones of those killed that they were doing something "safer" statistically than something else.

          Cold comfort and meaningless. The fact that more people drive than have ever been miners is irrelevant. Dead is dead.

          I know my daughter lost a very close friend in a car accident recently. I have never disputed the figures.
          Last edited by scoobydoo; 23rd April 2010, 22:01:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
          "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

          "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


          Comment


          • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

            Originally posted by scoobydoo View Post
            And I would add I have voted both Labour and Lib in the past - but will definitely not vote labour this election.
            I believe there are a great many more who are thinking like you.

            Labour have taken their support for granted and to those who appear to believe in the polls, Labour are now third.

            Still believe them?

            Comment


            • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

              Thought this was interesting - if the current leader can bandy about figures without giving timescales or accurate figures how can the opponents believe the figures that they are supposed to base their economic strategy on?

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobin...t_to_save.html
              ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
              As it was added to my previous post I would re-iterate my daughter last a very close friend in a car accident recently so I am not commenting on the consequences of death through illness or accident in an occupation or driving - both are just as devestating and any death that could have been avoided is tragic. It was only the comparison within a political argument that I was commenting on.
              ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
              [quote=Cetelco;156699]No, this is utterly wrong.

              These are not statistics. They are real numbers of real people. They are not percentages per head of population, or proportions, or statistical correlations. They are people who were alive but are now dead and there are a great deal more late drivers than their ever were late miners. It does not have to be proven with any argument, it is what it is.



              Out of interest which do you consider more dangerous - people partaking of class A/B/C drugs or alchohol?
              Last edited by scoobydoo; 23rd April 2010, 22:23:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
              "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

              "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


              Comment


              • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                Do you mean the actual substance, or the partaking of them?

                I would suggest that drugs are more dangerous, simply because of the conduct associated with taking many of them, in particular those which are injected and the fact that most of them are illicit. The truth is, neither drugs nor alcohol need to harm anyone, but the abuse of either will lead to harm.

                Consciousness-altering chemicals have been used for centuries, in fact probably even longer, in almost all cultures and self-management of these substances is extremely difficult, which is why it is so dangerous. It may be that the use of some of the less hazardous recreational drugs could be made safer, but social acceptance is going to take some considerable time. Alcohol has had that time, drugs have not.

                Comment


                • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                  I was just trying to make the point that more people die of alcohol related illnesses than drugs - which in terms of your argument makes alcohol more dangerous. But personally I feel the drugs culture is more dangerous because of the risk of death the first time you partake and also your points above.

                  Anyway as I said let the argument lie because I am only pointing out how figures can be used either way in a political argument.

                  We all have to vote on our own personal perception of what each party will do - and I hope we think of the country as a whole and not just our own pockets. I think we all know we are in for a hard time for the next couple of years what ever happens. Personally I am sick of the red tape and interfering in small businesses - I did not agree with the declassification of cannabis. I think the way that Labour handled the banks before the crisis was appalling. I am sick of the nanny state telling us what to do. I dont agree with the way that sex education is being handled in schools and the current H&S culture. I think the current lack of an immigration policy has caused more racists than before.I think the extended drinking hours was a mistake and we need to seriously clean up our cities so that people can feel safer when going out at night. I think we need radical changes on the benefits system and dependancy on the state when things go wrong.

                  Do I think any of the other parties are going to change those things or let us feel that have a say in our own future ? Not sure yet .I want to hear concrete proposals not woolly mantras.So I am still listening to the parties at the moment and have yet to be totally convinced.
                  "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

                  "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


                  Comment


                  • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                    We may well be in for a hard time for the next couple of years, but it need not be the case.

                    This notion is based on flawed thinking. Conventional wisdom holds that state expenditure is overwhelmingly used on essential services such as “schools and hospitals”, to quote the mantra constantly repeated by labour politicians in their socialist propaganda. Any cuts in funding are therefore bound to cause severe pain to the public, hence the scaremongering by Labour politicians right now. However, this is complete nonsense. The truth is that the Government machine is so vast, wasteful and mismanaged that massive savings could be made without any damage to any front-line operations.

                    Fifty years ago, the average skilled worker paid just 8% of their income in tax and national insurance. Today, thanks to the extension of bureaucratic socialism, that figure has reached almost 30%. It is little wonder that so few, except benefit spongers and the very rich, feel better off in Labour’s Britain.

                    The modern British state has become an instrument of oppression, not of service. It is a bloated monster with a seemingly insatiable appetite for our money and the more it consumes, the more useless it becomes. The idea that there is no scope for cuts without hitting the public is absurd. One straightforward measure would be to take an axe to the colossal bureaucracy that now prevails across our public life, reflected in the endless tiers of paper-shuffling, pen-pushing, box-ticking, procedure-following, report-issuing management that lord over us in central and local government.

                    The £180billion welfare system could be slashed as well. There is nothing more unjust than the phenomenon of hard- working jobholders handing over a third of their income to the state, only to see that money squandered on underwriting the cushy lifestyles of the feckless and indolent. It is particularly outrageous when the benefits go to grasping migrants who have made no contribution to our society, as highlighted by a string of recent cases where new arrivals have been given housing benefits worth more than £100,000 to live in luxurious houses in west London, far beyond the dreams of most of us.

                    Most of what I have seen and heard so far from all of them is so nauseatingly patronising, I can barely stand to listen to it. Labour pretend that the last thirteen years are nothing to do with them, the Liberals are attempting to cast themselves as different, yet have not been in power for over a century and with good reason and the Conservatives have failed to seize the opportunity that Gordon Brown has handed them.

                    Comment


                    • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                      I agree with a lot of what you are saying but the first rule of economics I was taught is full employment is the prime objective. If the cuts lead to more unemployment without changes to the benefits system then there will be less spending power less tax coming in and more benefits paid out. If the cuts are in other areas of waste then I totally agree.

                      In the current climate of PC job applications etc how are we going to guarantee jobs for British citizens?

                      How can we address the fact that our children are leaving school often ill prepared for the work force? they have no idea of how to handle money or even how the tax system works.

                      How can we change the current pressure of university for all and get back to teaching real skills to those that are not academically minded and make them proud of those skills.

                      personally I would offer subsidised degrees for degrees in science ,engineering and electronics and possibly one specialist university for "green issues" properly researched - so that we know the facts and are not preached to.

                      Also I would like to see much better careers advice in school - why should our children not go into nursing/ hospitality etc ? It may be low paid but it is better than jobseekers allowance.

                      Also as far as I can see the banks still are not lending and the construction industry is on its knees and yet we are all expected to tighten our belts whilst the government can keep borrowing.


                      So again I say I want to see constructive actions - we are adults - we can take it - so tell us the truth.

                      And I again agree I am fed up with being patronised.

                      sorry for the rant but MOH business is in dire straights due to the recession and they have already cut costs to the bone - To see a business that has been going for over 21 years suffering is hard - and I am sure this is being repeated many times all over the country so to try and kid us that things are getting better I think is giving false hope. But hey ho we can always blame it on evryone else but ourselves cant we.
                      "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

                      "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


                      Comment


                      • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                        Oh dear, looks like he's dropped another one lol


                        http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...-bigoted-woman

                        Comment


                        • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                          "bigot"
                          a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

                          Exactly what I have been saying - the fact that she mentioned eastern Europeans was not bigoted - it was about any immigrants from any country at a time of recession being able to have free access to our labour market. She was only using that as an example.Personally I thought his whole conversation with her was patronising. I think Labour have been trying to hide the fact that they either encouraged immigration or have lost control, and now because we all realise that we would be better off paying our own unemployed to do those jobs rather than paying out benefits the Labour party themselves are calling the public bigots - IMO it is about numbers not race and that is what
                          the parties need to keep re-enforcing. And as for saying the unemployed wont be paid for doing nothing Labour have had years to sort that out. And as the labour market varies so much between areas I really feel you should not generalise as he did. He should have said if there is a suitable job in the area the claimant should have very good reason not to accept the vacancy. If there are no jobs you can not cut the benefit.

                          I think we know now who ever gets in we are still in for a very hard time - lets hope I can sell my house if I have to escape to France or something !
                          Then I will become the immigrant.
                          ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                          And I just wanted to say that for the last 2/3 years my daughter worked on minimum wage in our local hotel with staff from all over the world - poland,india and hungary amongst others . She was shocked at how desperate some of them were - leaving children and families at home and sending money back for them to survive. They are also not treated very well by the Hotel management. But when two other people I know were out of work and really struggling they refused to even consider a job there because of the wages, they would rather take the JSA of £50 and manage on that. Personally I think working there has taught my daughter a lot about life and work ethics and although she is still on low wages in another job now she is still learning other life skills as well. That is the problem with generalisations and the politicians not answering questions in an honest or more specific way . Not all immigration is bad but we should have more control depending on the economic climate.

                          Also when they talk about cuts and waste - do they mean jobs or expenses or general waste or management etc etc - If the situation is so dire why have these cuts already happened ? Oh yes an election!
                          Last edited by scoobydoo; 28th April 2010, 17:56:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
                          "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

                          "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


                          Comment


                          • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                            Ha ha ha ha ha

                            Here is the part of it she actually said:

                            "GD: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're(She was going to say rascist)... all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from? "

                            There is a certain irony in his reaction to it. I think the bigotted comment was harsh but I did find it funny.
                            ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                            here are some classic gaffe's

                            BBC News - Classic gaffes caught on microphone
                            Last edited by natweststaffmember; 28th April 2010, 19:07:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

                            Comment


                            • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                              Another one here.

                              Gordon Brown Calls Woman Bigoted

                              If anyone was in any doubt regarding the public face of Gordon Brown, versus what he thinks of ordinary voters when he believes he is not being overheard then this must remove all doubt.

                              He claims he was confused. Then we don't want him as PM, if something as simple as this is capable of confusing him. He claims he was trying to answer a question, which is another lie, since he has not answered a single question during his entire political career.

                              He has shown his true colours and was caught out. His paranoid, self-obsessed, delusional, and terminally baffled persona is exposed in those few words.

                              That is what he thinks of anyone who disagrees with him.

                              Comment


                              • Re: General Election 2010 Thread

                                Comment

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