Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Ah crap ....

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

mystery1 - there WAS no court date letter - the "guilty or not guilty by post" letter expiration date was the beginning of June, and this letter with the points & fine was dated 9th June, so it would appear that a court date wasn't even sent out.

I think I have messed this up for him.

I think you need to read the letter again. The case should call in court and it should tell you when. That's when he needed to turn up.

Can you post it up removing name/address ?

M1

[Amethyst]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

http://cartwrightking.co.uk/news/mak...ice-procedure/

You will not be given a court date. If your plea is guilty or you do not respond within 21 days, your case will be dealt with by a magistrate sitting in private with a legal advisor and you will be contacted about the outcome. If you plead Not Guilty you will be advised of a trial date.

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I will try to find it - it's weird because his FIRST speeding offence had a specific "Come to Court" letter with date & time - I can't remember ANYTHING on the "guilty/not guilty by post" letter about court dates or anything like that - I will try to find that letter - sadly, my scanner at home has stopped working, so I'll have to type a lot of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, Amethyst - I will now have to face my son's anger at "not helping him at all" - jeez, it just gets better & better.

All I can do now is tell him to soak up the ponts, not drive for however long it is & pay the fine in instalments by direct debit,I guess. With regards to the fine, can my son decide how much he can afford every month & they will accept it, or does it have to be a huge amount every month?

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Ok, well as [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] has pointed out, this seems to have been handled under a newish procedure that i was previously unaware of. I can only apologise for that.

However, at least he has avoided a 6 month ban and can still drive until the DVLA notice comes through.

That is not the end of the matter though.

In my opinion, which i appreciate carries less weight due to my previous ignorance, your son should make an application under s 142 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980 to re-open a case to rectify a mistake.

Ideally you'd be able to speak to the prosecution and still do the deal i mentioned previously. However, a secondary important consideration is that the fine is excessive because no income details were entered and they used a higher amount than they would have if they had had the information from your son (by the sound of it). He'd also be able to set up payment terms.

http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.u...ing-a-case.php

"If you want to ask the Magistrates to use their Judicial Powers under Section 142 to re-open a case then you should arrange with the Court Listing Department to attend at the Court in order to make the application. There is no set form for the application and you will simply have to stand up in front of the Magistrates after arranging with the Listing Department to attend and outline the circumstances in which you believe a mistake has been made and try and persuade the Court that it is in the interest of Justice to re-open the case."

Apologies again for missing the new Single Justice Procedure was in play here.

M1

[Amethyst]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I think this make-a-plea stuff is new and only started being used in January - which might be where the confusion has come in. Not my area though and not something I know anything about ( because of course I am a perfect driver too )

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

http://cartwrightking.co.uk/news/mak...ice-procedure/

Predictable, criminal law justice - the Tory way! Make a Plea online, avoid the fine. Make a guilt plea, no hearing for me!

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Ok, well as @Amethyst has pointed out, this seems to have been handled under a newish procedure that i was previously unaware of. I can only apologise for that.

However, at least he has avoided a 6 month ban and can still drive until the DVLA notice comes through.

That is not the end of the matter though.

In my opinion, which i appreciate carries less weight due to my previous ignorance, your son should make an application under s 142 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980 to re-open a case to rectify a mistake.

Ideally you'd be able to speak to the prosecution and still do the deal i mentioned previously. However, a secondary important consideration is that the fine is excessive because no income details were entered and they used a higher amount than they would have if they had had the information from your son (by the sound of it). He'd also be able to set up payment terms.

http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.u...ing-a-case.php

"If you want to ask the Magistrates to use their Judicial Powers under Section 142 to re-open a case then you should arrange with the Court Listing Department to attend at the Court in order to make the application. There is no set form for the application and you will simply have to stand up in front of the Magistrates after arranging with the Listing Department to attend and outline the circumstances in which you believe a mistake has been made and try and persuade the Court that it is in the interest of Justice to re-open the case."

Apologies again for missing the new Single Justice Procedure was in play here.

M1

M1, had you done your research instead of using anecdotal experience or used your common sense, you'd know never to leave an op to plea bargain of the day. Criminal lawyers know what they're doing, law and practice change all the time, especially under Tory justice. This could have been so easily avoided by at least the OP trying to make a case instead of just leaving it to the day. If I were the OP I'd stay out of the son's way for quite a bit!

[Amethyst]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I will try to find it - it's weird because his FIRST speeding offence had a specific "Come to Court" letter with date & time - I can't remember ANYTHING on the "guilty/not guilty by post" letter about court dates or anything like that - I will try to find that letter - sadly, my scanner at home has stopped working, so I'll have to type a lot of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, Amethyst - I will now have to face my son's anger at "not helping him at all" - jeez, it just gets better & better.

All I can do now is tell him to soak up the ponts, not drive for however long it is & pay the fine in instalments by direct debit,I guess. With regards to the fine, can my son decide how much he can afford every month & they will accept it, or does it have to be a huge amount every month?

If you can find the letter that would be good, it should make it clear on the letter what to do and the consequences of not doing so. The old way was if you didn't plea on paper you got a hearing date, which I think is what the guys here were basing their thoughts on. If it isn't clear on the letter then some action needs taking.

Oh and CAMERA is fine rather than scanner xx Most cameras even phone one are perfectly good quality to read documents.

[Amethyst]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

M1, had you done your research instead of using anecdotal experience or used your common sense, you'd know never to leave an op to plea bargain of the day. Criminal lawyers know what they're doing, law and practice change all the time, especially under Tory justice. This could have been so easily avoided by at least the OP trying to make a case instead of just leaving it to the day. If I were the OP I'd stay out of the son's way for quite a bit!

I note you didn't mention the new procedure either OL.

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

M1, had you done your research instead of using anecdotal experience or used your common sense, you'd know never to leave an op to plea bargain of the day. Criminal lawyers know what they're doing, law and practice change all the time, especially under Tory justice. This could have been so easily avoided by at least the OP trying to make a case instead of just leaving it to the day. If I were the OP I'd stay out of the son's way for quite a bit!

It's no consolation to me that had he tried to fight it, he'd have been worse off.

M1

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I am certainly NOT going to say "YOU SHOULD HAVE TOLD ME THIS or THAT!" because at the end of the day, my son was a totaly pillock, ignored the initial speeding & then the failure to disclose driver etc.

I think the only way forward now is for him to set up a repayment direct debit (I hope that he can pay a small amount & just keep paying it - unless I am wrong, if he set up a DD for £20 a month or something, as long as he IS paying something, they are usually okay with that).

The points he will just have to soak up, I guess. I really can't see the point of reopening thte case to go to court, because at the end of the day, he WAS originally guilty of speeding & ignoring the letters etc., and therefore, it is ALL out of his hands.

£811 does seem quite harsh though - do you think that'll include the speeding as well, or will that be another fine & more points (taking him to 15 points if it's another 6)?

Yoikes.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Ok, well as @Amethyst has pointed out, this seems to have been handled under a newish procedure that i was previously unaware of. I can only apologise for that.

However, at least he has avoided a 6 month ban and can still drive until the DVLA notice comes through.

That is not the end of the matter though.

In my opinion, which i appreciate carries less weight due to my previous ignorance, your son should make an application under s 142 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980 to re-open a case to rectify a mistake.

Ideally you'd be able to speak to the prosecution and still do the deal i mentioned previously. However, a secondary important consideration is that the fine is excessive because no income details were entered and they used a higher amount than they would have if they had had the information from your son (by the sound of it). He'd also be able to set up payment terms.

http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.u...ing-a-case.php

"If you want to ask the Magistrates to use their Judicial Powers under Section 142 to re-open a case then you should arrange with the Court Listing Department to attend at the Court in order to make the application. There is no set form for the application and you will simply have to stand up in front of the Magistrates after arranging with the Listing Department to attend and outline the circumstances in which you believe a mistake has been made and try and persuade the Court that it is in the interest of Justice to re-open the case."

Apologies again for missing the new Single Justice Procedure was in play here.

M1

It wasn't a mistake it was an implied admission of guilt by the Op's son for not responding. The Magistrate will not open this case up under section 142 as it was the OP son's fault not the magistrate.

"142
Power of magistrates’ court to re-open cases to rectify mistakes etc.
.
(1)
[F1A magistrates’ court may vary or rescind a sentence or other order imposed or made by it when dealing with an offender if it appears to the court to be in the interests of justice to do so;] and it is hereby declared that this power extends to replacing a sentence or order which for any reason appears to be invalid by another which the court has power to impose or make.
.
[F2(1A)
The power conferred on a magistrates’ court by subsection (1) above shall not be exercisable in relation to any sentence or order imposed or made by it when dealing with an offender if—
.
(a)
the Crown Court has determined an appeal against—
.
(i)
that sentence or order;
.
(ii)
the conviction in respect of which that sentence or order was imposed or made; or
.
(iii)
any other sentence or order imposed or made by the magistrates’ court when dealing with the offender in respect of that conviction (including a sentence or order replaced by that sentence or order); or
.
(b)
the High Court has determined a case stated for the opinion of that court on any question arising in any proceeding leading to or resulting from the imposition or making of the sentence or order.]
.
(2)
Where a person is [F3convicted by a magistrates’ court]and it subsequently appears to the court that it would be in the interests of justice that the case should be heard again by different justices, the court may, F4. . .so direct.
.
[F5(2A)
The power conferred on a magistrates’ court by subsection (2) above shall not be exercisable in relation to a conviction if—
.
(a)
the Crown Court has determined an appeal against—
.
(i)
the conviction; or
.
(ii)
any sentence or order imposed or made by the magistrates’ court when dealing with the offender in respect of the conviction; or
.
(b)
the High Court has determined a case stated for the opinion of that court on any question arising in any proceeding leading to or resulting from the conviction.]
.
(3)
Where a court gives a direction under subsection (2) above—
.
(a)
the [F6conviction] and any sentence or other order imposed or made in consequence thereof shall be of no effect; and
.
(b)
section 10(4) above shall apply as if the trial of the person in question had been adjourned.
.
F7(4)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.
(5)
Where a sentence or order is varied under subsection (1) above, the sentence or other order, as so varied, shall take effect from the beginning of the day on which it was originally imposed or made, unless the court otherwise directs."

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I note you didn't mention the new procedure either OL.

I didn't know of the new procedure either but common sense dictates, you should never assume the law never changes. But that's not the point; the point is the OP's son could have at least had a chance to defend himself. When I make posts I generally research the law to make sure it hasn't materially changed. I know enough about criminal law to be aware that if the defence doesn't admit specific defences then it is assumed there generally are no criminal defences for that crime type. Plea Bargaining is a different creature though and is only relevant if there is something for the prosecution to think about, ie arguing technicalities, or other mitigation ie young age, first offence, could be grounds for plea bargaining. Losing control in a fight might be a defence for manslaughter instead of an otherwise conviction of murder. I know that 'mistake' is a substantive criminal defence and that would have been better than nothing, too.

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I am certainly NOT going to say "YOU SHOULD HAVE TOLD ME THIS or THAT!" because at the end of the day, my son was a totaly pillock, ignored the initial speeding & then the failure to disclose driver etc.

I think the only way forward now is for him to set up a repayment direct debit (I hope that he can pay a small amount & just keep paying it - unless I am wrong, if he set up a DD for £20 a month or something, as long as he IS paying something, they are usually okay with that).

The points he will just have to soak up, I guess. I really can't see the point of reopening thte case to go to court, because at the end of the day, he WAS originally guilty of speeding & ignoring the letters etc., and therefore, it is ALL out of his hands.

£811 does seem quite harsh though - do you think that'll include the speeding as well, or will that be another fine & more points (taking him to 15 points if it's another 6)?

Yoikes.

There was not enough evidence for the speeding to stick to your son so that was apparently dropped. This will be the total punishment.

They will have used the default weekly wage which i think is £440 for calculations. I'd certainly want that re opened and recalculated if that is appropriate. If you're asking for that you might as well take a punt on the 6 points and try and turn that to 3 at the same time, no ?

M1