Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I am certainly NOT going to say "YOU SHOULD HAVE TOLD ME THIS or THAT!" because at the end of the day, my son was a totaly pillock, ignored the initial speeding & then the failure to disclose driver etc.

I think the only way forward now is for him to set up a repayment direct debit (I hope that he can pay a small amount & just keep paying it - unless I am wrong, if he set up a DD for £20 a month or something, as long as he IS paying something, they are usually okay with that).

The points he will just have to soak up, I guess. I really can't see the point of reopening thte case to go to court, because at the end of the day, he WAS originally guilty of speeding & ignoring the letters etc., and therefore, it is ALL out of his hands.

£811 does seem quite harsh though - do you think that'll include the speeding as well, or will that be another fine & more points (taking him to 15 points if it's another 6)?

Yoikes.

Wouldn't the letter haven given you an itemised account though, if it were for both?

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

I didn't know of the new procedure either but common sense dictates, you should never assume the law never changes. But that's not the point; the point is the OP's son could have at least had a chance to defend himself. When I make posts I generally research the law to make sure it hasn't materially changed. I know enough about criminal law to be aware that if the defence doesn't admit specific defences then it is assumed there generally are no criminal defences for that crime type. Plea Bargaining is a different creature though and is only relevant if there is something for the prosecution to think about, ie arguing technicalities, or other mitigation ie young age, first offence, could be grounds for plea bargaining. Losing control in a fight might be a defence for manslaughter instead of an otherwise conviction of murder. I know that 'mistake' is a substantive criminal defence and that would have been better than nothing, too.

1. His dad didn't come with a request for a defence at all costs. He wanted to help him get the best result but he was admitting to speeding. If i'd seen a possible defence i'd certainly have said. The "i was doing 35 but the guidelines say 35 should be ok" defence is utter garbage and wouldn't work even if the magistrate was blootered.

2. The best way to handle what he had in front of him was to try and minimise the punishment and keep the time off the road to a minimum. Dual charging of these 2 offences is a common but dirty tactic which they really shouldn't do. Hence they take an easy speeding conviction and ditch the much harder FTF conviction on a relatively frequent basis.

M1

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

openlaw15 - that's why I am a bit worried for him in that this Notice if Endorsement letter with the 6 points & £811 fine - there is no mention of the speeding that was on the "Postal Guilty/Not Guilty" form thing, just the "failure" offence.

I really don't want ANOTHER letter arriving with ANOTHER fine, and ANOTHER set of 6 points, as that will take him way off the scale, which for 2 minor speeding offences, is somewhat excessive, even though he was an idiot for ignoring it until it was well into the "too late" section of the law.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

1. His dad didn't come with a request for a defence at all costs. He wanted to help him get the best result but he was admitting to speeding. If i'd seen a possible defence i'd certainly have said. The "i was doing 35 but the guidelines say 35 should be ok" defence is utter garbage and wouldn't work even if the magistrate was blootered.

2. The best way to handle what he had in front of him was to try and minimise the punishment and keep the time off the road to a minimum. Dual charging of these 2 offences is a common but dirty tactic which they really shouldn't do. Hence they take an easy speeding conviction and ditch the much harder FTF conviction on a relatively frequent basis.

M1

To be fair, I don't think you'd know a criminal law defence unless you have studied criminal law. You might know about parking fines n stuff but when the matter becomes criminal it's far more serious. I don't think you understand the English legal system either but to be fair you've never studied that too - i did and passed an exam to that effect. So what you think is garbage is probably not in fact garbage at all.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

openlaw15 - that's why I am a bit worried for him in that this Notice if Endorsement letter with the 6 points & £811 fine - there is no mention of the speeding that was on the "Postal Guilty/Not Guilty" form thing, just the "failure" offence.

I really don't want ANOTHER letter arriving with ANOTHER fine, and ANOTHER set of 6 points, as that will take him way off the scale, which for 2 minor speeding offences, is somewhat excessive, even though he was an idiot for ignoring it until it was well into the "too late" section of the law.

The effect of this new law is that your son had a trial via an 'on paper' hearing under the new 2015 Act and or Criminal Procedure Rules Part 24, Single Justice Procedure Rules as amended April 2016. You could contact the Magistrate's Court officer to find out the actual details. I am so sorry things have turned out the way they have. It will have been very harsh if it were a 6 point penalty for failure to furnish alone. Mystery1 thinks you can ask the Magistrate to reconsider its decision. In reality, the mistake regrettably was your son's, and by reading section 142, it seems highly unlikely that the magistrate would turn over its decision as there was no mistake by the Magistrate and in reality there would not in your son's case be a 'public interest' in the court's view any way. If this were the case then lots of people would claim a miscarriage of justice and criminal law punishments would then seem soft, in which it is certainly not. Only if there were a serious error in law would there remotely be any prospect for any defendant who pleaded guilty or his guilt by omission, ie no action (ie implied guilt) to claim a miscarriage of justice. It would be a rather expensive appeal too.

[Bigsis]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hi Captain Chaos

My son was in a similar position a few years ago. I contacted a solicitor who specialises in motoring offences, my son didn't have to go to court as the solicitor went and got the Failure to name driver dropped and plead guilty to the speeding offence. His name is Bobby Bell, BB Law Ltd, 07764 757214. He will give you initial advise, but there will be a charge if you want him to act for you. Just thought I'd let you know, as a parent, I know how worrying these things are. Hope it all goes well.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hi Captain Chaos

My son was in a similar position a few years ago. I contacted a solicitor who specialises in motoring offences, my son didn't have to go to court as the solicitor went and got the Failure to name driver dropped and plead guilty to the speeding offence. His name is Bobby Bell, BB Law Ltd, 07764 757214. He will give you initial advise, but there will be a charge if you want him to act for you. Just thought I'd let you know, as a parent, I know how worrying these things are. Hope it all goes well.

Thank you Bigsis for your post.

In addition to where the person pleads guilty at the interim hearing (first hearing for formality), the law changed very recently to where there is no response by the defendant the Magistrate can give a decision based on a paper hearing for efficient disposals. You're talking about plea bargaining where the criminal lawyer negotiates prior to the guilt stage.

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hiya Bigsis & openlaw & everyone who has contributed to my pleas for sanity hahahaha

Well, this has ended up (as expected) with a letter that arrived for him yesterday .....

"Your test pass and entitlement to drive as a full licence holder will be withdrawn five days after the date of this letter (9/6/16) etc. etc.

Also

"To get your full licence back you must: Apply for a provisional licence and comply with the learner conditions until you pass another theory & practical test."

Oh dear oh dear oh dear

So that was 3 or 4 months of driving he had before bringing the wrath of the new drivers law upon himself.

To be honest, if he HAD replied to every letter sent to him, I really don't think the end result would have been much different.

I am going to speak to him & say "treat this as starting from zero again & as a new start" and try to talk calmly down from the roof hahahahaha

Two things I would like to ask before I put this one to bed:

1) when he gets his new provisional licence (again), then passes his test (again), does he start again with zero points on his licence? I appreciate that when he tries to get insurance, he will HAVE to declare that he has been banned etc. etc. but that's his lookout, not mine.

2) With regards to the £811 fine - if he phones them up & says "I can only afford £20 (or £30 or £10) a month because I am not earning a huge wage" are they likely to accept the fact that he is going to pay it, but it'll take longer to complete the fine.

oh, and possibly finally:

3) The £811 fine was stated as being for the 'failure to disclose driver details' etc. It didn't mention the 2nd speeding offence (the first speeding fine was dealt wth in court - 3 points £200 fine - all paid). My son also said at that time that he was stopped by the police for having a "below minimum depth front tyre tread" but other than a letter about a Notice of Intended Prosecution, I have had nothing else - all of these letters were around the same time - will the tyre tread thing be added to the current speeding/failure stuff and then zero'd when he 'starts again' or will it be added when he gets his provisional/new full licence? It just keeps on piling on & on doesn't it?

Thanks once again.

Ian

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

To be honest, if he HAD replied to every letter sent to him, I really don't think the end result would have been much different.

He'd have had an offer of a speed awareness course and 1 fixed penalty. It would have been vastly different.

1) when he gets his new provisional licence (again), then passes his test (again), does he start again with zero points on his licence? I appreciate that when he tries to get insurance, he will HAVE to declare that he has been banned etc. etc. but that's his lookout, not mine.

No he'll have 9 points. This is 1 reason, aside from reducing the fine, that i suggest a s142 application.

2) With regards to the £811 fine - if he phones them up & says "I can only afford £20 (or £30 or £10) a month because I am not earning a huge wage" are they likely to accept the fact that he is going to pay it, but it'll take longer to complete the fine.

He will be able to pay up but i'm not sure how he goes about it as it's usually a case of asking whilst in court.

3) The £811 fine was stated as being for the 'failure to disclose driver details' etc. It didn't mention the 2nd speeding offence (the first speeding fine was dealt wth in court - 3 points £200 fine - all paid). My son also said at that time that he was stopped by the police for having a "below minimum depth front tyre tread" but other than a letter about a Notice of Intended Prosecution, I have had nothing else - all of these letters were around the same time - will the tyre tread thing be added to the current speeding/failure stuff and then zero'd when he 'starts again' or will it be added when he gets his provisional/new full licence? It just keeps on piling on & on doesn't it?

I guess it's not impossible that they can do something about the tyre but the speeding will have been dealt with and you won't hear anymore about it.

M1

[wales01man]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Bloody hell a hard lesson to learn maybe he will keep within the speed limits in future and not ignore letters .
One last thing what a great dad the OP is for trying to sort the mess out

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

wales01man - I'm obviously NOT a good dad, because I haven't waved my magic wand & got "all of the badness" to disappear hahahaha

Oh yes, just BEFORE all the speeding/failure to disclose/tyre "situation", he had received FIVE parking tickets from Bristol City Council - he ignored those too & it all went up to £110 (or £120, I forget) EACH - so about £600 ... I put my superhero costume on, wrote to the Council repeatedly begging forgiveness for him & they dismissed THREE of the five, and reduced the other two to the original £60 each ... what a shame I couldn't do that with this palava.

mystery1 - The mention of a speed awareness course was never mentioned in any of the letters that I saw (unless it was on another letter that I didn't see).

I told him about the ban & £811 fine earlier this evening & told him that he HAS to phone them to start a repayment plan/direct debit. I also added the 6 month ban bit, but DIDN'T tell him about the "getting a provisional licence & retaking his theory/practical" test again - that'll have to be during the 6 months, I think.

What is the s142 application? Is it really worth it (whatever it is)?

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

mystery1 - The mention of a speed awareness course was never mentioned in any of the letters that I saw (unless it was on another letter that I didn't see).

You have to send in the drivers details 1st before they offer it.

I told him about the ban & £811 fine earlier this evening & told him that he HAS to phone them to start a repayment plan/direct debit. I also added the 6 month ban bit, but DIDN'T tell him about the "getting a provisional licence & retaking his theory/practical" test again - that'll have to be during the 6 months, I think.

He doesn't have a 6 month ban unless he gets to 12 points (and doesn't successfully argue exception hardship). He can book the tests now.

What is the s142 application? Is it really worth it (whatever it is)?

In my opinion, which i appreciate carries less weight due to my previous ignorance, your son should make an application under s 142 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980 to re-open a case to rectify a mistake.

Ideally you'd be able to speak to the prosecution and still do the deal i mentioned previously. However, a secondary important consideration is that the fine is excessive because no income details were entered and they used a higher amount than they would have if they had had the information from your son (by the sound of it). He'd also be able to set up payment terms.

http://www.driverdefenceservice.co.u...ing-a-case.php

"If you want to ask the Magistrates to use their Judicial Powers under Section 142 to re-open a case then you should arrange with the Court Listing Department to attend at the Court in order to make the application. There is no set form for the application and you will simply have to stand up in front of the Magistrates after arranging with the Listing Department to attend and outline the circumstances in which you believe a mistake has been made and try and persuade the Court that it is in the interest of Justice to re-open the case."



I'd say the above is worth it. The fine is too high isn't it ? So the least you'd want is a reduction in fine. The court made a mistake in using the default weekly wage. (it was bound to since no info was provided) At the same time you may as well argue the new procedure confused him/you (or more accurately me but saying that won't help) and try and get the matter reopened completely so we get to do what we had planned. The worst that happens is they say no.

M1

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hiya mystery1!

Interesting, because the only letters/forms that have been sent to my son are

1) COURT/FIXED PENALTY OFFICE. Date if conviction: 09/06/2016

Your entitlement to drive has been revoked (withdrawn) under the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995, as we have been notified by the court that you have now incurred six or more penalty points within two years ....

You must return your driving licence to DVLA ....

To get your full licence back you must - apply for a provisdional licence and - comply until you pass theory & practical test.

This letter then says: To apply for a provisional driving licence. You can do this straight away .... blah blah blah.

and: Passing a retest does not remove penalty points from your driving record.

------------

2) Notice of endorsement of driving record

The court has ordered that your driving record be endorsed with the penalty points stated below.

DVLA Code: MS90 12/01/2016 Fail to give information relating to the identification ... when required. Driving record endorsed with 6 points (and £811 fine).

--------------------------

Okay, so as it stands at the moment, his points are as follows:

Initial speeding (we went to court): 3 points

Fail to give information: 6 points

I can't see on EITHER of those 2 letters on the length of the "ban".

The only thing I am worried about (*for him) is that the 2nd speeding fine/points and the tyre tread depth things, I haven't received anything further about them (yet). Obviously, I don't want him to get a provisional licence, only to find that the 2nd speeding & tyre things add up to 6 more points & he's screwed again!

Also - the 9 points that he has totted up (so far) on his licence 0 will they stay on his lice ce for the 3/4/5 years & if he so much as breathes too fast, it'll be an instant ban again, or do his points start from zero again when he passes his test/gets his provisional licence?

-----------------------

However, on the Single Justice Procedure Notice, there were TWO charges - 1) Fail to give information and 2) Speeding automatic camera device.

I think you (or someone) said that the speeding part will have now been included in the failure addition & can be 'forgotten about'.

I STILL have a NIP at home for him about "insufficient tyre tread" which arrived around the same time as all of this speeding/failure ones - I can only guess that'll be ANOTHER 3 points to add to it all.

I am SO sorry to confuse it all by adding all this stuff, but he is too immature to understand what is going on (mind you, I don't understand a lot of it either), which is why I am trying to lessen the blow somewhat by giving him the information in bite sized chunks.

Also, apologies for adding so much into this topic reply!

I am also so grateful to everyone here with their helpful advice!

Cheers

Ian

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

He isn't banned, that's why there is no mention of it.

Yes the speeding can be forgotten about.

Can you sanitise the tyre letter and post it up ?

M1

[wales01man]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Sound advice to appeal if its possible but is there much of a chance of winning and having the penalties reduced?
From reading the posts from the OP it is probable that the son will be in trouble for driving offences sooner than later sorry to say.