Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Wohhhh

I didn't expect a "don't do that do this no guarantee for anything" thing here.

I have been advised to do certain things, which seem to be viable. I am (fairly) law abiding, so I have no idea about any of this other than my son was a doughnut & drove too fast (twice) by a static camera, then ignored the initial 'letter', so it has escalated to either a "guilty" or "not guilty" plea via post, or as Mystery1 has said, wait until a court summons appears & then try to speak to the prosecutor to say that my son will plead guilty to the speeding, if the failure to provide driver details offence is removed.

The 2nd speeding offence will take him up to 6 points, and as he is a new driver, it is highly likely that he will get his licence revoked for 6 months or so. His insurance will increase & he will be a miserable little monster for quite some time.

I don't know if I can say anything on his behalf in the courtroom, but he is 21 and really should be able to talk nicely to the magistrate(s) about the fact that he has just started a new job in a car home & needs his car to be able to look after the old people!!

Yeah I know - crap excuse & he really needs to learn the hard way to teach him a lesson. I am just trying to reduce the inevitable so he doesn't lose the will to live!

Well, he'll go to an interim court hearing and then asked how he will plead. I think the procedure is 2 hearings, one for the speeding and one for the failure to identify. If your son doesn't need the driving for his job a revocation of his licence won't kill him. Perhaps he'll learn from this. I think a written statement from you would do your son a world of good, ie it shows you as a lawfully abiding citizen/ father is saying sorry for what your son did.

As to plea bargaining, well the prosecution would probably be happy with a guilt plea to the speeding at least. It was just a stupid thing for your son to hide the letter it's not really a criminal offence in the intent element of the crime, it's just what young people do. There are some people who hide their identity with intent to impede criminal justice. You son never did that, his was just a mistake. It is possible for your son to admit liability for speeding but enter a criminal common law defence of mistake for his failure to identify himself.

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

The thing is, OpenLaw15 - yes I could write a very good letter pleading some sort of leniency, but if he is NOT sending the "Single Justice Procedure Notice", surely me sending a letter but son NOT sending that back would be taking the **** a bit, surely?! The "Failure" and "Speeding" offences are both on the same form/letter.

I think I will just wait for the court date & have a word with the prosecutor (as Mystery1 said many times) - obviously, when that court date arrives, I will be back here again to ask "what do I do when I get to court with him?" but don't answer that yet until that court date arrives!

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

There is no leniency, really.

Once you get the deal sanctioned and he pleads guilty he will get 3 points. The only way to not get 3 points is to ask for a short ban of 7-14 days. It's unlikely to work and he'd still be 1 minor 3 point penalty away from revocation. Provided the local test centre plays ball he could be back on the road in a matter of days without the revocation hanging over him.

Having been a browser of this forum, I thought I would take the time to write down our experience for other members to benefit from.

Back in August 2015 my wife received a speeding ticket for an offence in Brighton. This was received via redirection since we'd moved. She dutifully retuned the completed NIP and we heard nothing more.....until February 2016 when she received a postal requisition for speeding and failure to furnish.

Terribly alarmed by this I made some investigations and contacted Sussex safer roads. They told me a reminder had been sent out at the end of September - we didn't receive this whatsoever.

I followed the process outlined by many members on the site and accompanied by wife to court.

We had an attendance date at 10am on 24 Febraury, we arrived around 9am. We were met by ushers on the door, who asked us to sit and wait for a police prosecution representative to chat with us.

At 9:45 a police representative (some people call them cps but they weren't in this case) chatted to us.
Explained that there is no legal advice offered by her, explained the charges and before we even had chance to ask she offered to drop the "Failure to furnish", for a guilty plea to speeding and explained the rationale of prosecuting the underlying offence. We were going to ask for the very same process but it was willingly offered up to us. And we had to offer up no mitigation.x

Of course we agreed, we were prepared with the form filled out with mitigating circumstances included, she also said my wife need not attend court ( which she snapped up ) we added to the end of the form that since the matter was caused by an admin issue could she be treated to a fixed penalty charge equivalent?

We remain to see what the fine will amount to.

We were out of the court building by 10am.

We were ever so polite, suited and booted, I have no idea if this gets you better treatment but this was our story.
Further background - my wife had a clean licence in 20 years of driving.

Good luck with your case......

Not from this forum but ...

M1

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

There is no leniency, really.

Once you get the deal sanctioned and he pleads guilty he will get 3 points. The only way to not get 3 points is to ask for a short ban of 7-14 days. It's unlikely to work and he'd still be 1 minor 3 point penalty away from revocation. Provided the local test centre plays ball he could be back on the road in a matter of days without the revocation hanging over him.





Not from this forum but ...

M1

This is different though as the Op was not aware of the proceedings in the extract you post but in the current circumstance the Op was. In the first the Op could have made a statutory declaration as they were not aware of the proceedings. In this case the Op's son was aware of the court proceedings but ignored them. Technically speaking, the son was more culpable (blameworthy) than the op in the extract.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

The thing is, OpenLaw15 - yes I could write a very good letter pleading some sort of leniency, but if he is NOT sending the "Single Justice Procedure Notice", surely me sending a letter but son NOT sending that back would be taking the **** a bit, surely?! The "Failure" and "Speeding" offences are both on the same form/letter.

I think I will just wait for the court date & have a word with the prosecutor (as Mystery1 said many times) - obviously, when that court date arrives, I will be back here again to ask "what do I do when I get to court with him?" but don't answer that yet until that court date arrives!

I produce the following to give you an insight, an understanding into how law generally works from the your son's view and a reasonable person's view. This is practice in civil and criminal law but the Magistrate is not a lawyer so he knows it not. The clerk in the Magistrate's court (the qualified lawyer) will be well acquainted with it albeit is may be some time since they observed in action. The prosecution will know the principles well because the prosecutor at one time may have been the criminal defence.

In law, whether civil ie for civil negligence, or criminal law in general in terms of 'intent,' we use hypotheticals. For instance, we compare to a subjective standard and an objective standard in terms of assessing culpability (blameworthiness). So it is in essence the subjective standard, ie what your son thinks, and the objective standard what the hypothetical (reasonable person) thinks, ie the 'reasonable person' standard. The reason why we do this in law is because we cannot be certain of what is fair in the judge'/s magistrates mind so we use fairer tests using said standards, ie the person's mind who has committed the offence, and the reasonable person's mind, ie what they think of the one who committed the offence.

In light of the subjective standard, as though I were in your son's shoes I would want a hearing for the second speeding charge as in my view the CPS when issuing guidelines must follow them or it is abuse of discretion, which is in law illegal (ultra vires) in the civil sense. Even applying the objective standard, the average person (reasonable person) would view your son as needing to be dealt with fairly and he was only 5 miles per hour over the legal speed limit and or alternatively within the bottom of the charging threshold for its type.

Applying the subjective standard (as though I were your son), I would ask the prosecution to accept a common law mistake as your son made an error in judgement where he didn't provide ID details for the purposes of the speed camera device, owing to fear and nothing else. Applying the objective standard, is there really a public interest in prosecuting a relatively young man who is merely 21 in years just for making a mistake. The answer is a resounding no, so this charge is very easy to defeat with a mistake defence.

So I think there are grounds to defeat the 2nd speeding offence and the failure to furnish. However I am not you or in your son's situation. I did however provide with my alternative opinion.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Wohhhh

I didn't expect a "don't do that do this no guarantee for anything" thing here.

I have been advised to do certain things, which seem to be viable. I am (fairly) law abiding, so I have no idea about any of this other than my son was a doughnut & drove too fast (twice) by a static camera, then ignored the initial 'letter', so it has escalated to either a "guilty" or "not guilty" plea via post, or as Mystery1 has said, wait until a court summons appears & then try to speak to the prosecutor to say that my son will plead guilty to the speeding, if the failure to provide driver details offence is removed.

The 2nd speeding offence will take him up to 6 points, and as he is a new driver, it is highly likely that he will get his licence revoked for 6 months or so. His insurance will increase & he will be a miserable little monster for quite some time.

I don't know if I can say anything on his behalf in the courtroom, but he is 21 and really should be able to talk nicely to the magistrate(s) about the fact that he has just started a new job in a car home & needs his car to be able to look after the old people!!

Yeah I know - crap excuse & he really needs to learn the hard way to teach him a lesson. I am just trying to reduce the inevitable so he doesn't lose the will to live!

Removed opinion as it wasn't legal

[Kati]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

If your son makes a statutory declaration under Magistrates procedure, the failure to furnish offence will be cancelled. He just needs to lie on oath, ie he signs a form at the Magistrates.

Perjury?? For a speeding offence??

OL ... are you sure you want to suggest this?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Perjury?? For a speeding offence??

OL ... are you sure you want to suggest this?

Removed to keep thread tidy

[wales01man]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Breaking the law is not a mistake especially speeding if you don't know the speed limit where you are driving and exceed it is not a mistake

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Breaking the law is not a mistake especially speeding if you don't know the speed limit where you are driving and exceed it is not a mistake

The mistake defence is the error of judgement in not providing his identification for the police camera issue. The speeding argument I suggested is not a mistake defence it is arguing a technicality.

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hi people ....

Okay - the plot thickens - received a letter yesterday entitled "Notice of endorsement of driving record".

Order
The court has ordered that your driving record be endorsed with the penalty points stated below.

DVLA Code MS90 - 12/01/2016 Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver/rider of a vehicle when required. DRIVING RECORD ENDORSED WITH 6 POINTS.

Notice of fine and collection order. Offences & penalties. Date 9 June 2016 1/ Fail to give information .... £811.00



After the previous suggestions, I thought this would be going to court, plead guilty for the speeding if they dropped the "fail to give information...." but it seems that has all been bypassed & he's gone straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect 200.

There is no mention of the original speeding offence (the 35 in a 30 one) when both the speeding AND failure were on the letter where he could have pleaded guilty or not guilty by post.

What should he do now, because it says "You must pay the total amount before 30 June 2016 - £811.00.

What should he do? (or more accurately what should I do, as I seem to be constantly handed the letters to sort out) ....

And it would appear I've only got a couple of weeks TO sort it out.

HEEEEEEEELP!

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hi people ....

Okay - the plot thickens - received a letter yesterday entitled "Notice of endorsement of driving record".

Order
The court has ordered that your driving record be endorsed with the penalty points stated below.

DVLA Code MS90 - 12/01/2016 Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver/rider of a vehicle when required. DRIVING RECORD ENDORSED WITH 6 POINTS.

Notice of fine and collection order. Offences & penalties. Date 9 June 2016 1/ Fail to give information .... £811.00



After the previous suggestions, I thought this would be going to court, plead guilty for the speeding if they dropped the "fail to give information...." but it seems that has all been bypassed & he's gone straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect 200.

There is no mention of the original speeding offence (the 35 in a 30 one) when both the speeding AND failure were on the letter where he could have pleaded guilty or not guilty by post.

What should he do now, because it says "You must pay the total amount before 30 June 2016 - £811.00.

What should he do? (or more accurately what should I do, as I seem to be constantly handed the letters to sort out) ....

And it would appear I've only got a couple of weeks TO sort it out.

HEEEEEEEELP!

Under the new driver law it's automatic unless you argue the points. The prosecution must have decided in the absence of mitigating circumstances (but to be fair you never put any) that the failure to furnish is automatically 60 points all together. i did advise against leaving it to the last minute to do a deal with the prosecution. The prosecution are not just going to a do a deal unless there are grey areas. He should have as I suggested pleased guilty to speeding but use the mitigating circumstance I said earlier. In terms of the failure to furnish he should have entered 'mistake' defence as an error of judgement.

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hi people ....

Okay - the plot thickens - received a letter yesterday entitled "Notice of endorsement of driving record".

Order
The court has ordered that your driving record be endorsed with the penalty points stated below.

DVLA Code MS90 - 12/01/2016 Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver/rider of a vehicle when required. DRIVING RECORD ENDORSED WITH 6 POINTS.

Notice of fine and collection order. Offences & penalties. Date 9 June 2016 1/ Fail to give information .... £811.00



After the previous suggestions, I thought this would be going to court, plead guilty for the speeding if they dropped the "fail to give information...." but it seems that has all been bypassed & he's gone straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect 200.

There is no mention of the original speeding offence (the 35 in a 30 one) when both the speeding AND failure were on the letter where he could have pleaded guilty or not guilty by post.

What should he do now, because it says "You must pay the total amount before 30 June 2016 - £811.00.

What should he do? (or more accurately what should I do, as I seem to be constantly handed the letters to sort out) ....

And it would appear I've only got a couple of weeks TO sort it out.

HEEEEEEEELP!

Did they change the court date or didn't he turn up ?

M1

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

mystery1 - there WAS no court date letter - the "guilty or not guilty by post" letter expiration date was the beginning of June, and this letter with the points & fine was dated 9th June, so it would appear that a court date wasn't even sent out.

I think I have messed this up for him.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

mystery1 - there WAS no court date letter - the "guilty or not guilty by post" letter expiration date was the beginning of June, and this letter with the points & fine was dated 9th June, so it would appear that a court date wasn't even sent out.

I think I have messed this up for him.

If your son didn't respond to the offence it's like the equivalent of a guilt plea. The usual formality for Magistrates included is that there is interim hearing to plead guilty or not guilty. You should have taken advice from a lawyer - i have studied criminal law but am no lawyer. Mystery1 has not even studied criminal law. I do not know what you can do now. You can't appeal the magistrate's decision except on a point of law (as i don't think it can be appealed on a point of fact), possibly to the Crown Court. I don't know if you can ask a Traffic Commissioner for a reconsideration of the Magistrate's decision.