I will let you make up your own minds...

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Therein lies the thrust of the appeal as I didn't discern that either. It's clear from me (anyway) it's collusion made to fit. they'll offer before ET......

I would have replied earlier to this, its not that i had nothing to say it's the fact that I've just realised that you were not talking about a 1980's speilberg film.....seriously I am thinking that It looks like they have handed this to me on a plate, which in a way is to good to be true, this leads me to believe that something has been missed, either in the letters the way its worded i don't know. They say that English is one of the hardest languages to learn, I thought I found it quite easy and being born here and starting at an early age helped, now I think I don't know it as well as I should..I have informed ACAS and have my certificate so I'll prepare for that stage. This whole situation has not done me any good with illness and reputation but will try to keep my head high and try and keep myself motivated. ... Anyway humour time and on the subject of the English Language Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?...

Cheers
GB

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Hi people I have another question
Is there a difference in these to comments taken from the appeal decision

You were not dismissed for the disciplinary issues & you were not dismissed for the conduct issues

and now the thought of the day.... There’s always a lot to be thankful for if you take time to look for it. For example I am sitting here thinking how nice it is that wrinkles don’t hurt.

Cheers GB

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

The thing that has me baffled about the appeal decision is that after reading it over and over I no longer know why Ginger was dismissed.
It states that he wasn't dismissed for the conduct issues or the disciplinary issues but for Some Other Substantial Reason.
What reason is that then???

If anyone could direct me to what I'm missing, I would really appreciate it.

Allegation: an assertion, especially relating to wrongdoing or misconduct on somebody's part, that has yet to be proved or supported by evidence.


Breakdown in trust and confidence employers rely on this reason for SOSR as the reason for dismissal


Often by the time of the dismissal the employer/employee relationship has broken down anyway.


This does not mean its the actual reason for dismissal, the real reason is likely to be conduct


This being the case the breakdown of trust and confidence is a consequence of the real reason and not the reason itself


Breakdown in trust and confidence mentioned in Disciplinary meeting and dismissal letter


Reasons: 1. Conflict between disciplinery letter and Rules and procedures 2. Misheard interperation in a telephone call.


Appeal letter states Not dismissed for disciplinary or conduct issues.


Remaining issues are: Letter and rules conflict & Telephone Call


Classification : Both Misunderstandings


Causes: The information required to comply with any rules,procedures and polycies is vague at best and mostly hearsay.


Responsibility: T****** E***** should make sure employees have been given or have acces to any relevant documents, and have read and fully understood them and raised any concerns they might have. This is required by law as a minimum, to outline company disciplinary rules and procedures in the employee written statement of terms and conditions.

Somebody I know I think is tired of me being long winded and going on and on...
My Trust and Confidence in Them:
To be continued........

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
I've been mulling this SOSR thing over and the only thing that makes sense is that (even though they didn't spell it out in their documents) they'll rely on the following, and a few other, bits from the dismissal and Appeal letters.

you acted in an aggressive and threatening manner to two employees, which made them feel uncomfortable and stressed
You are aware that we, as a company have a duty of care, to you, our other employees and members of the general public and therefore these actions cannot be tolerated.

You believe you were dismissed for making people uncomfortable/stressed at work.
The issues raised by individuals were a grave cause of concern in relation to your employment. Whilst you may view it as acceptable that it was 'old school' shouting, how the employees felt is an important factor

So, the other substantial reason could be that they no longer have trust and confidence in your ability to behave appropriately with other employees in the workplace and therefore, because of their duty of care to their other employees they feel that the only responsible thing to do is to not permit you to return.
(After looking at some caselaw, this is a SOSR that has been accepted as fair by Tribunals.)

[charitynjw]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

And one final question which everyone wants the answer to is...Why fizzy lemonade has no lemons in it but washing up liquid is full of them?
GB

I reckon it's all bananas!

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
I've been mulling this SOSR thing over and the only thing that makes sense is that (even though they didn't spell it out in their documents) they'll rely on the following, and a few other, bits from the dismissal and Appeal letters.

you acted in an aggressive and threatening manner to two employees, which made them feel uncomfortable and stressed
You are aware that we, as a company have a duty of care, to you, our other employees and members of the general public and therefore these actions cannot be tolerated.

You believe you were dismissed for making people uncomfortable/stressed at work.
The issues raised by individuals were a grave cause of concern in relation to your employment. Whilst you may view it as acceptable that it was 'old school' shouting, how the employees felt is an important factor

So, the other substantial reason could be that they no longer have trust and confidence in your ability to behave appropriately with other employees in the workplace and therefore, because of their duty of care to their other employees they feel that the only responsible thing to do is to not permit you to return.
(After looking at some caselaw, this is a SOSR that has been accepted as fair by Tribunals.)

If I handed you all the paperwork without me answering the allegations or did not put my version of events across this could look straight forward fair dismissal at first glance. I can accept that, but we both know its not the real reason and have pointed out the attempts to bolster the allegations to answer your three points
1 I said this was a war of words and as pointed out by the HR consultant different people view things different ways and I am also prepared to sign any statement I make.
2 I believe I was there to answer the allegations as laid out in the invitation to a disciplinary letter, so i would assume as this is written in the allegations and my defence was given to defend myself against these allegations, then this should be given as part of the reason for dismissal. This I can only assume because no confirmation of answering or giving a satisfactory explanation has been received.
3.These issues of concern whether satisfactory or not have been answered and if the concern was that great then why did they contain information not relevant to the allegations, instances of events that didn't even happen on the dates of these allegations and failing to prove that these allegations had any substance during you investigation by failing to get them signed.
As for the old school shouting this was mentioned at the appeal with reference to the MD who had once pushed his chest out, clenched his fists and shouted in my face, which i then said that I didn't mind because i had done something wrong and this was an "old school bollocking"

As for the SOSR reason with my provable evidence as above and failure to provide clarity in what I was actually defending myself against this proves there was no reason just an effort bolster such a reason so an outcome of dismissal could be achieved.

Now my answers above are the bits no one sees or cares about, this in my mind makes it unfair. It might say SOSR but the real reason is that this director did not like me. I can prove this with the evidence I have and there are lots. The problem being is to get people looking beyond the open and shut case as it seems at first glance.

But as always I'll let you rip holes in this but I don't mind

Cheers GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

The thing is that they made such a pig's ear of their paperwork that it's really difficult to work out the actual reason for dismissal. They sprinkle SOSR all over the place without specifying what the SOSR actually is.
What I've posted in #64 is the only SOSR that I think that they could possibly make stick if they were to present this to a Tribunal as their reason.
I have no idea if they would present this reason or if they've even considered it. There's no way to find out unless and until you receive an ET3.
If you decided to take this further you'd need to focus on the other matters and be very careful not to alert them to this possible reason.