I will let you make up your own minds...

[charitynjw]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

The was no CLAUSE in my contract that said i couldn't throw it:santa3:

Are you sure there wasn't a sanity clause? :w_nikolaus_187:

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Are you sure there wasn't a sanity clause? :w_nikolaus_187:

The previous year I was in trouble with the Boss for not being festive enough, so I threw a pair of knickers at hime....Well they were CAROLS.....

Surely we can't keep posting Christmas humour at this time of year lol.. Okay one more

This year I tried to break my record of eating 4 dry crackers in under a minute .... I got to the third one and choked on a plastic moustache .... Thank you and goodnight...

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Lol! at you two.

Back to business....Can she confirm that when she came in you were the only other person in the room?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Yes she confirmed this to me last night

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Sorry for keeping people following this in suspense, the reason for this is the behind the scenes work that Me and Mariefab have been doing, This included very long hours sometimes working through to the next day, we realised that we both have to put in 150% effort and it was going to be a long hard battle, we were out numbered and out gunned. At times there were tears of frustration we had our backs up against the wall, other people would have gave in but we threw everything we had at them even though they hired some of the best ... What a fight it was and in the end we achieved...Sod all....does the above seem confusing then carry on reading because this has baffled us both.

I would genuinely like to thank Mariefab who really has been a fantastic help and the advice and replies given have been spot on, and this has given me the motivation to take this all the way.

Right the first thing was to gain more time for the appeal which was this

G O

18.01.2016
Mr G B
Managing Director
T E L
Dear Mr G B:
I wish to appeal the decision to dismiss me.
Although I was informed of the decision by phone on 12th January I was given no details. So, I didn't know the 3 reasons for the decision until I received the confirmation letter on 15th January.
I request the reasonable adjustment of a 1 week extension of time to enable me to get advise and compile a written outline of the grounds for my appeal.
Please confirm that this is acceptable.
Sincerely,
G O

I got given this extension..... Next post

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Now this was the letter of appeal, I did one of these myself which I thought was better but unfortunately I was told it would be wrong to question the MD's parentage in the manner It had been written (wrong for the animal), the is the one written by Mariefab...read on..

G O
28.01.2016
G B
Managing Director
T E L Ltd
Dear G B:
I would like to thank you for granting my appeal, the reasons for this are stated below as requested.
Procedural Issues.

1. The letter inviting me to the disciplinary hearing indicates that the outcome was pre-determined. In particular this paragraph:
'Once this disciplinary hearing has been held we will have a short break and then reconvene a further meeting in which we will discuss your continuing employment due to some other substantial reason, namely the loss of trust and confidence that we have placed in you since the start of your employment. The allegations above, if not deemed as gross misconduct, would still be classed as serious misconduct and a breach of our rules and procedures. Thereby making this concern a reason to terminate your employment with notice.'
I note that there is no inclusion here of the phrase 'if proven' as specified in the earlier reference to gross misconduct nor is there any other similar qualifying phrase.
So, it appears that the only purpose of the disciplinary hearing was to determine whether I would be dismissed without notice on the grounds of gross misconduct or with notice on the grounds of serious misconduct.

2. The same person carried out an investigation, by interviewing employees to compile complaint letters, and then chaired and conducted the disciplinary hearing itself.

3. The unsigned Employee Complaint Interviews contain allegations about 14th December and are dated 16th December, but one of them refers to events on 17th December.

4. The disciplinary hearing was conducted by asking me closed questions. When I tried to explain I was cut off. So, I didn't have a proper opportunity to present a defence to the allegations. Then the Chair left the hearing for a brief period, returned with a letter which he said was a statement from a witness and read it aloud. (I've never seen this statement. I don't recall what it said. I wasn't permitted to read it myself and was refused a copy.) After this he said that all the evidence pointed to gross misconduct and ended the hearing.
　
Reason 1.
On Monday 14th December 2015 you acted in an aggressive and threatening manner to two employees, which made them feel uncomfortable and stressed.

The interviews gave an inaccurate description of 14th December in many respects. Notably A's didn't mention that, not for the first time, he told me to 'take a chill pill'.
As far as I was concerned we'd had some words and it was over and done with.
His closing statement refers, among other things, to escalating issues of the last few months, that I often seem unstable and ……THIS HAS BEEN REMOVED IT WAS A VERY PERSONAL ISSUE THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED ONTO THIS STATEMENT.

After I hit someone with a chocolate bar in July 2014 I was given a final written warning, for one year, on the condition that I sought help. I was diagnosed with depression (moderate to severe) in August 2014 after which I had a meeting with the board, told them of my diagnosis and gave them leaflets from the antidepressants and other medication prescribed. Although they were obviously concerned with my behaviour my employers couldn't have been sure, before that date, that I had a disability.

I'm not always aware, as most people are, of my presentation when communicating with others. Anxiety, irritability or anger are symptoms of depression and others could perceive this as aggression. Thus, my appearance of aggression arises from my disability.

After speaking to my doctor and looking into it a bit more, I've realised that the times that I was taking my antidepressants meant that I wasn't getting the full benefit of their effects during my working hours. My doctor and I will be discussing how I can adjust the times that I take my antidepressants to correct this

The dismissal letter mentions the Company's duty of care to me; but no reasonable adjustments had been made, or considered as far as I am aware, to assist me.

It doesn't seem consistent or proportionate to dismiss me for making people feel uncomfortable and stressed in these circumstances.

Reason 2.
Also on 15th December 2015 for no apparent reason you threw a desk Christmas tree across the office and stormed out of the door, this was captured on CCTV footage and, if it had made contact with another person, this would have been classed as an assault, and could have potentially caused a serious injury. Indeed if that had been the case that employee could have taken out criminal charges against you.

At the hearing it was claimed that K H was in the room. If asked she could confirm that she came into the room through the door behind me after I threw the little tree and that, except for myself, the room was empty.

The hypothetical consequences described were not possible.
　
Reason 3.
You will also recall that after the formal meeting on the 6th January 2016 I had a without prejudice conversation with you, for clarification this is an off the record discussion which should not be refered to outside the meeting. On 12th January 2015 you advised me that you had been told that whatever I had to say to you in that without prejudice meeting it should be put in writing to you. This is another example where we have lost trust in you and therefore again adds to the breakdown of the working relationship.

I only learned that this was one of the reasons for my dismissal when I received the confirmation letter on 15th January.

In a phone conversation on 12th January I said that if we were to proceed with a settlement agreement then it would need to be in writing to be legally binding. I discovered this by looking up without prejudice settlement on the internet.

I find it incomprehensible that one of the written reasons given for my dismissal is a misapprehension gained in the same call that informed me that the decision had been made to dismiss me.
　
Sincerely,
G O

You have to look at the above and think that something has got to go in my favour, maybe my job back or some sort of agreement.

Next Post......

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

You might have to go back over previous posts to look at how this has all started and the original allegations against me,.

This is the outcome letter as it was written but i have decided to comment on this and have highlighted these in RED

12th February 2016 Mr. G
Dear Mr. O
Outcome of Appeal
l am writing to inform you of the outcome of the appeal hearing held on Friday 5th February 2016 at 3 p.m. You were accompanied by Mr Carter.

During the meeting we discussed and confirmed that your grounds of appeal were as follows:

The letter inviting me to the disciplinary hearing was preordained; it says I could be dismissed for Gross Misconduct or dismissed with notice. Didn't know why 2 meetings and 2 issues, the letter clearly shows a decision had been made to dismiss me. Are you saying you were dismissed because of your disability and not as per the letter of dismissal. The invite to disciplinary all hearing was pre-judged. It said would be dismissed for gross Misconduct or dismissed with notice as a result.

The words I used were pre-determined also I read the whole passage he called it a clause and I disagreed and called it a statement which he agreed. There was no mention of disability at this point in the meeting. And when this was brought up in the meeting what happened is stated below.
Without a solid admission of dismissing me for being disabled then to allege this would be a waste of time, but it is a possibility, but as for evidence what had been happening with my job and things ignored and no duty of care this would need looking into. He said we have no times and dates so it’s not the issue. I have plenty of dates times and evidence.

Under the ACAS Code of Practice, you are required when inviting an employee to a disciplinary hearing to indicate a potential sanction which might be given as a result of the hearing. You were not dismissed for the disciplinary issues but for Some other substantial Reason(SOSR). Outlining possible disciplinary awards in the letter inviting an employee to a disciplinary hearing is an acceptable practice and therefore your grievance is declined.

I agree that the outlining of potential awards is common and is acknowledged in the letter. This clearly states alleged actions outlined above which are the ones that it clearly states to answer the following allegations.

The same person who did the investigation did the disciplinary hearing - C H I can confirm that C H did both as you have suggested. However you were not dismissed for the conduct issues but as I have stated previously SOSR. and whilst this element is upheld, it is not the basis for your dismissal.

It’s showing another error in procedure and should have been taken into account because of my previous statement above.


You believe you were dismissed for making people uncomfortable/stressed at work. Inconsistent application of policies, for example E-cigarettes, required to smoke outside, but then other staff start using them, and using them indoors. You believe you were treated differently than others.
I have investigated the matter and the application of the rules specifically the use of E-cigarettes in the workplace is not tolerable. AII employees are required to smoke outside and this includes E-cigarettes. This has been confirmed by the Business.
The issues raised by individuals were a grave cause of concern in relation to your employment. Whilst you may view it as acceptable that it was 'old school' shouting, how the employees felt is an important factor


I raised the point about the MD shouting at me, pushing his chest out and clenching his fists and mentioned old school and how I accepted it because I had done wrong.

As to why I was dismissed I am still a little confused as the above was part of the allegations made. I used the E-cigs as an example and then moved on to say this happens to often that rules are made up on the spot. I would say your investigation was made easy by the recently produced documents; these documents have been unavailable until now. It was as if there were different rules for different people. I had been asked if this is still the same I didn’t know so he asked was it the same up until you left.

There was no one in the room when I threw the Christmas tree across the office. K came in after I had thrown the tree. You state you were stressed and under pressure', you react to noises and felt a nervous wreck. You believe It was a knee jerk reaction throwing the tree.

C had made a point to test this in the disciplinary meeting by slapping the table this was pointed out.


Whilst I recognise that stress is part of the workplace, and ensuring you manage yourself an important factor. Throwing the Christmas tree across the office, whether a knee jerk reaction or not and whether someone was there or not is unacceptable.
The company were aware that something was wrong, you believed you were stressed as you had no medication, and that someone needs to take responsibility for it.

I said I was out of tablets and I had informed the correct people, I explained that it is claimed that people had spotted a change in character and did nothing, now if they were as concerned as they claimed they were, then they should have taken responsibility instead of mocking the situation. I did not imply they should have taken responsibility for my medication.


Responsibility lays with yourself to ensure you have sufficient funds to ensure you can purchase medication. I understand Mr. H lent you fifty pounds so that you could purchase medication.

I never mentioned about purchasing medication, the fifty pounds was given to me under protest. The issue was mentioned in the meeting as a pharmacy error and the money was not needed the night before payday and the chemist being closed. This fifty pounds was then withdrawn from my wages without consent.
With reference to this the man has to read his own written advice on the A******* 24hr website on the subject Lawful pay deductions. Also the deduction of money for safety boots which I never received.

Having given the matter full consideration, I am now writing to confirm that the original decision taken by C H stands and that I have decided to uphold the original decision that you are dismissed for some other substantial reason (SOSR).

This reason of SOSR was not mentioned at the appeal for being the only reason for dismissal, so if this is the reason for dismissal A and D have lied, beefed things up and got away with it. Also the issues raised could not be a cause for concern because they were considered irrelevant when I objected to their content, also they were attached to allegations that were not proven.

You have now exercised your right of appeal and this decision is final, there is no further right of appeal.

Yours sincerely,

L P
On Behalf of T E

I'll just confirm that the text from the outcome of appeal letter is all there and in the order it was written, this is not the order that it was said in the meeting and he has jumbled his notes up and made things look bad, this is why I have countered his statements with mine in RED.

feel free to ask questions or if somebody has any more advice to offer this would be appreciated. The next stop is ACAS so this could be going on for longer still.

Remember make up your own minds :violin:and don't feel sorry for me, I'm going to carry one fighting I'm not giving up:yield: and i'm going now because I'll get carried away with these emoji's

[Trev1234]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Hey Ging,

The practice here feels a lot like my position. I was suspended for theft, dismissed on breach of policy, reinstated on disproportionality, then immediately suspended on lying at the appeal. Now at ET for constructive dismissal.

Lesson: The bastards will collude and THEY WILL get you, by hook or crook. Then you'll have to defend yourself against their actions - even when it's as plain as the nose on your face.....

Good luck!

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

If you are given no guid lines, polycies rules procedures etc and when these were asked for on several ocassions but the request was ignored, you have a choice either follow blindly or stand up and make some noise. We had No statement of employment, No Contract, No H & S Handbook, No Company handbook, this was not just me but the rest of the workers there. I believe that you can have a laugh and still get on with your work, I will do everything that the job involves it doesn't matter to me taking a brush of some young lad and letting him do something a bit more cushy, I did mind within reason how the lads spoke to me or even shouted on occasions, This was the environment and I created a good team and we always looked out for each other and helped each other out. Even with this "every thing a laugh and joke" attitude I did take my job very seriously and took a department that was in a real mess and losing money, back to the way it should have been and even the revenue was rising until the day I got suspended. I am also a man that gave my lads a chance to speak up and not pull rank every time I disagreed, they also knew that I wouldn't hold back and say what I think and didn't care if I upset them. I prefer to say the real thing not what people would like to here. This was the same for the floor workers and the management and would often defend one side against the other.

If your wondering where this is going then here is a lesson learnt.....I Have got to try and learn to keep my big mouth shut, because someone will come along who thinks they have more powers than superman and make life hell because they don't like hearing the truth.

At the end they soon forgot about the good things and focused on trivial issues, If he thinks he is a superhero then all I can say is he must have been bitten by a radioactive TW*T!
Your right they will get you if they want but they cannot get away with it, I will not give up.
Cheers
GB

[Trev1234]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Just be careful as they might!

T

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

The thing that has me baffled about the appeal decision is that after reading it over and over I no longer know why Ginger was dismissed.
It states that he wasn't dismissed for the conduct issues or the disciplinary issues but for Some Other Substantial Reason.
What reason is that then???

If anyone could direct me to what I'm missing, I would really appreciate it.

[Trev1234]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Therein lies the thrust of the appeal as I didn't discern that either. It's clear from me (anyway) it's collusion made to fit. they'll offer before ET......

[Amethyst]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

It appears to be Reason 3 - which is daft, but the other two reasons in the original descion were the 'disciplinary' matters so it only leaves reason 3. ?? Do you think?

Reason 3.
You will also recall that after the formal meeting on the 6th January 2016 I had a without prejudice conversation with you, for clarification this is an off the record discussion which should not be refered to outside the meeting. On 12th January 2015 you advised me that you had been told that whatever I had to say to you in that without prejudice meeting it should be put in writing to you. This is another example where we have lost trust in you and therefore again adds to the breakdown of the working relationship.

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Hi all,
Just a few points, at the disciplinary we never did reconvene a further meeting he asked everyone to leave and had an off the record chat.

At the appeal the chair said that I think a decision has already been made because its got that clause in there, I said that aint no clause fool that's a statement...sorry i lied i didn't say fool to make it sound like MR T(It would have been a good idea) but he did agree with me and said he couldn't argue with that.

He said its normal to put possible penalties in the disciplinary letter which they did, then told me of my rights etc and put the bit about SOSR at the end??

Surely if the allegations were proved it would have caused any company to lose trust and confidence so i would say that goes for most disciplinary's, you don't discipline people you have complete trust and confidence, anyway It turns out I was not guilty of these allegations but they have not explained why they have lost trust and confidence

I can't fully understand SOSR but from what i read it can be a catch all reason when it doesn't fall into one of the others, I know that it says 1 or more reasons but for this to stand surely i should have been found guilty of the conduct allegations??

If SOSR was the reason from the start then isn't the disciplinary process different?

This has been bugging me the bit where it says " Taking part in activities " this sounds like its recreational "Every monday we go and shout at people and make them uncomfortable and tuesdays is christmas tree throwing night". (Might be just me)

And one final question which everyone wants the answer to is...Why fizzy lemonade has no lemons in it but washing up liquid is full of them?

They're not keeping me down

Cheers
GB

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Just another little snippet of information for you all

The first things said in the appeal was my concern over the appeal not going to be heard or considered and it would be a waste of time having the same guy in the room who has been involved from the start, and its his decision what happens at the end. The consultant assured me that it would be his decision and I even asked him again to confirm it. He signed the letter of appeal so thats three times he's confirmed it.
The question is the legality of this, I have had a look through the rules and procedures that were issued post-event and it says that only a director is allowed to dismiss, anyone know the allowed action by a third party who I am not contracted to in anyway even though my contract is only verbal and is not mentioned in the companies rules and procedures that i have so often been accused of breaking or not following, but never been accused of not reading.?? Just thought I would ask.

Cheers GB