I will let you make up your own minds...

[Ginger Black]

I have been looking into this for a while and opinions and advice can be one sided. Of course I am right, my employer also thinks he is right, so rather than put the whole story down I will give you the situation and answer any questions and hopefully with all them information gathered and advice given we should come to a reasonable conclusion on how it should end. That way I think I will better be able to decide what to do.

On December 14th 2015 I had an argument with a colleague in the works carpark, I would describe it a difference of opinion and a war of words, I said what i had to he said his bit shook hands end of.

The allegations
Taking part in activities which cause the company to lose faith in your trust and confidence.
Alleged Dec 14th acted in an aggressive and threatening manner to two employees which made them feel stressed and uncomfortable.

Dec 15th Threw a desk christmas tree across the office and stormed out the door. if it had made contact with another person, would have been classed as assault. This could have potentially caused serious injury.

I was off for the next day and half returning on 17th 2pm.
Has anyone got any opinions on how any action should be taken given the info above

Cheers GB

[leclerc]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

In what way did you act in an aggressive and threatening manner? Having an argument?

What happened on this incident on December 15th?

Is there a disciplinary hearing over this?
What evidence has been presented to you?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

It is the argument that has been seen as aggressive and threatening but in my opinion it wasn't. like i said it was more a war of words

This did admit to but the memory of doing it is vague, I have been under a lot of pressure at work and home which my employer knows about and this was just just a momentary outburst of anger, It caused no harm or damage and i have admitted and apologised for this.(This was on CCTV)

I have said i was off until 17th Dec 2pm. As soon as i turned up i got called upstairs, i hadn't even clocked in. When i walked in the boardroom I said I am glad your'e both here I need to raise an issue. They said you go first so I did.( If you need to know the issue let me know) Then they asked what happened monday. I said when, they said in the carpark. Then I told them what happened and i thought it was over. They said they had 2 complaints and witness statements to say i was abusive, threatening,shouting and revving my car up. The result of all this was suspension on full pay from Friday 18th until 6th Jan but because of the christmas period 24th Dec to 4th Jan was classed as holiday. I had the clauses of not being able to contact colleagues only through the company. The letter was sent on the 24th and received on the 29th Dec so I contacted a colleague on the 3rd and told him to inform them that he would be attending.

The evidence supplied was
Copy of disciplinary rules and procedures First time I had seen these in 4 years but i have asked for them and other documents numerous times
Witness statements from 2 people They were letters of complaint from the 2 making the allegations. They were typed on 16th December
but they were not signed or dated.
CCTV footage of 15th available Not disputed.

Hearing was conducted by the Director who conducted the investigation and his wife was the note taker

Hope this is ok any more info let me know
Cheers GB

[leclerc]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

So December incident of throwing Christmas Tree did not happen?

If you did have an argument with these people was it after work? What was the argument about?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Yes the throwing incident did happen but this was caused by the stress and pressure i was under, this sort of thing i do see quite often from other staff members and have even caught the MD having a tantrum. I suppose this sort of thing can be an issue if you make it one but not normally noticed as breaking rules but venting frustration and anger.

The first complaint has not truth behind it but exaggerates things that are never normally questioned, this one can be proved quite easily to be wrong, but company workings will have to be explained. I can explain if required but i believe it to fabricated to add weight to the next complaint.

Second Complaint.
We are both heads of departments but recently with confusing changes, our jobs conflict with each other even though on numerous occasions going back nearly 4 years, i have asked management for Statement of employment, Contract, company handbook, rules and procedures, none of which have materialized.
Earlier in the day I advised him not to do something because it would come back on me. His reply was to do it anyway and they can talk to me if there is a problem. I had a visit in the afternoon from that customer and it was a problem he asked where his stock was and went on at me for a bit and then walked of to talk to someone else. I went to see this other head of department and told him what i said would happen did happen. He walked of shrugged his shoulders like he normally does. I went back to the customer and carried on with work. Twice this other head came into the office and even made eye contact with the customer but never said a word. I informed the customer who's fault it was he had not received his stock so he confronted the head next time he came in. His defence was he didn't know the procedure and it won't happen again, he also said if I make a mistake i admit it straight the way. I said no you don't he said yes i do and rather than turn it into a pantomime i went back to work.

I saw him in the car park after work and decided to talk to him. I told him he don't admit things because if he did he would have spoke to the customer himself without being prompted to do so. I said your'e not as honest as you think you are. He said take a chill pill have a nice evening I walked back to my car and we both continued to shout the same things back at each other while i walked to my car

I drove out putting my seat belt on, its the situation where you haven't got your hands on the wheel its going straight ahead but your going to slow and you'll have your seatbelt on before you need to turn. I turned about 3 -4 ft away from his car. Drove out the gate and saw him walking towards his car I stopped so he stopped. I said to my passenger I bet he thinks I've hit his car he disagreed so i carried on. I thought about it and thought i'd go back because if there was any previous damage he could blame me. I saw him checking and said whats up. He confessed to checking if i had hit. I asked if he was blaming me for something, he said no i was just checking to see if i had hit it. I said if i had i would admit it. Then he replied chill out go take a tablet
i know you've ran out. This now becomes personal because i have been on antidepressants for nearly 2 years. We had a few words and as far as i was concerned we agreed we were both in difficult situations with the clash of jobs, shook hands and then went home.

I hop this makes sense, feel free to keep asking questions
Cheers GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

The Christmas tree incident is potentially gross misconduct.
If your employer doesn't accept your mitigation they could fairly dismiss you for this.

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Hi Mariefab

What situations would you expect a company to accept my mitigation considering what you know from what i have said above

Thanks for your reply
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

I don't understand your question.

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

I don't understand your question.

Why should my employer not believe me when i tell him it was just frustration from the stress and pressure i was under, and the fact that even the MD has the same sort of tantrums as do many members of staff. Like i said it can be an issue if you want to make it an issue, but in my situation i believe it is being used to give weight to the complaint.

How does this seem to you?

(I am not saying we all throw christmas trees at each other, to me its like slamming the phone down, or throwing your pen)

Cheers GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Your employer could believe you and also take into consideration that others have had tantrums.
Their task is to then decide whether this mitigation outweighs your actions and their (potential) consequences.

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

What stage are you currently at? Are you deciding whether to appeal a disciplinary decision?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

So what your saying is, it does not matter if there was no one or fifty people in the room, it s what damage could have been done, and because the company have a duty of care to their staff, because of the risk this could be classed as gross misconduct.

In your opinion which complaint would you consider the most serious
The allegations which i deny or the christmas tree which i admit.

I ask this because i believe that minds are already made up. Further in the letter it reads

Once this disciplinary hearing has been held we will have a short break and then reconvene a further meeting in which we will discuss your continuing employment due to some other substantial reason, namely the loss of trust and confidence that we have placed in you since the start of your employment. The allegations above, if not deemed as gross misconduct, would still be classed as serious misconduct and a breach of our rules and procedures. Thereby making this concern a reason to terminate your employment with notice

I don't know if considering that
I have had no Statement of Employment
I have had no Contract
I have not received no company hand book or rules and procedures
I have not been given access to these as they are non existant
Can be taken into account and this is a company wide problem that rules are broken & changed on a regular basis, i will give you an example
3 people had safety boots at the same time and within 4 months they all required new ones

1 of them had to pay full price reason given was he had already had a pair this year and the rule was 1 pair per calender year
1 of them got a pair of boots but still had to pay £7.99 because he had gone over the limit of £20.00
and the last one stood his ground saying you should not pay for PPE the MD ordered him a pair and he still had £7.99 taken out his wages without knowledge.

I know that you just can't use all wrongs they do to staff as a defence, but I would say that they have no consistency in anything they do.

Any one got any points on this or feel free to put me right
Thanks everyone who is taking and interest

Cheers
GB

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

What stage are you currently at? Are you deciding whether to appeal a disciplinary decision?

The stage I am at is ....
I'll explain this first
My company claim to employ a team of advisor's that do all of the decision making for them, and they set the questions set out the way the disciplinary should be run and they then decide what to do with me.

After the meeting the Director kept me back and offered me 2 weeks wages plus any holiday if i resign. He did try to get me to sign it then but i said i would talk to my wife first. He agreed but i needed to Phone first thing with an answer

I had a family problem the next morning my son was involved in a car crash. He said phone in the afternoon i need to know. I left it until friday afternoon because i couldn't get in contact. No i needed to be sure of what he was offering and he did say it was called a settlement agreement but needed to no now because this company needed paperwork from the disciplinary so they could decide what to do. He said he don't even know if they will go for a Settlement agreement the might think its to serious. He kept on trying to make me take the settlement. I said i don't know anything about these and will have to research. He told me i wouldn't have time they need to know by 6pm. I said with everything that been going on both at work and personal life I can't make a decision yet so you will have to do what you got to do. I said i'll go home now and phone you monday 9am. If you have sent the paperwork of but i wanted to settle its tough on me.

So I am still suspended with pay, being pressured into signing a Settlement agreement without the chance to negotiate (yet), and not knowing why he has offered it, when he is so sure he has me on Gross Misconduct

The whole disciplinary meeting was full of faults in my eyes, one instance being he left the room to fetch a hand written statement that was in his hand writing, a statement which wasn't signed by anyone or a copy of this sent to me. He wouldn't show it to me, He read this out loud claiming that it
proved Gross Misconduct and then ended the meeting.

I haven't even made a statement which i thought i would be expected to.

Anyway thats a bit more for people to think about and i do need honest opinions on this so if you think i am at fault in any part please don't hesitate to post. Thanks again Mariefab for continuing to take an interest

Cheers
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

When similar (or worse) things have occurred in the past with no consequences it's easy to understand and sympathise with your sense of grievance about this situation.

In my opinion the christmas tree incident is the most serious complaint.
If the room was empty I think you might have mentioned it and I don't think your employer would claim that it could have caused an injury.
Your employer does have a duty of care for it's employees and, although such incidents may have happened before without any action being taken, on this occasion there are written complaints because of the other issues. If your employer did nothing and at some time in the future someone is injured in a similar scenario your employer would be in a very difficult position.

I'm afraid that the fact that your employer is far from perfect when it comes to PPE, paperwork and rule changing doesn't help you.

The advisors your Company employs to assist with the conduct of disciplinary procedures could look at the evidence gathered and make recommendations. They could, for example, reassure your employer about the likely outcome of a potential unfair dismissal claim.
But these advisors will NOT make decision about what happens to you. That responsibility lies solely with your employer.
The offer of a settlement suggests that your employer either simply wants to make the problem go away or isn't certain of the potential consequences of the decision he has in mind.

One question for you. The paragraph in your post #12, "Once this disciplinary hearing has been held.............................terminate your employment with notice."
Is the a direct quote from the letter you received before the disciplinary hearing?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Once this disciplinary hearing has been held we will have a short break and then reconvene a further meeting in which we will discuss your continuing employment due to some other substantial reason, namely the loss of trust and confidence that we have placed in you since the start of your employment. The allegations above, if not deemed as gross misconduct, would still be classed as serious misconduct and a breach of our rules and procedures. Thereby making this concern a reason to terminate your employment with notice



Hi Mariefab

This is word for word from the letter informing me of the disciplinary meeting.

He mentions these advisor's all the time but knowing the company i work for, i don't even think they use them but he is still pressuring me to sign this settlement agreement today. He claims that they need to know and he can't hold off any more.

But on the subject of Duty of Care i have pasted a few notes that i have made from one of many occurances that have happened like many things ignored and brushed under the carpet.

I worked in an office on my own with a fitness studio above (MD's brother) The noise was so loud I couldn't concentrate, The room and my desk shook, cracks appeared around the door and across the ceiling, plaster was falling down, lights fell down, light covers fell down, light bulbs fell down, lights did not work because of all this and i worked in torchlight just to catch work up. I constantly complained management even visited me and said they couldn't work in this. I was constantly picked on for trivial things but although promised they didn't move me. It was a year before they moved me.I see my doctor every month and i'm on antideppresants (18 months) I am nervous and jumpy and get irritable when i am ignored.

when i started to complain about this. things started to change for the worst and this the director was constantly on my back

Cheers
GB