I will let you make up your own minds...

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

His claim that his advisors can't hold off any more is nonsense. They (supposedly) work for him.
I repeat, the decision on whether to dismiss you or give you a warning rests solely with your employer.

I can tell you that no half-competent HR 'advisor' would put that paragraph in a letter before a disciplinary hearing. It implies that a decision to dismiss you has already been made. So, you could be right in thinking that, if these advisors exist, he isn't using them.

I'm afraid that no matter how appalling they are, unless they are directly relevant to the specific allegations made against you, examples of how bad your employer is/has been can't assist you in this disciplinary matter.

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Hi Mariefab

Thanks for your last post, I do realize that we have to deal with the allegations and not past issues, I was head of a department which means i did have staff under me and believe strongly that a workplace does work best with rules in place. We don't need them to tight or to loose either and because of my position i felt it my responsibility to point the things out that were affecting things like performance and moral. I didn't do this one sided, I have explained to my staff, on the occasions they were, that management were correct. I even had a saying "if dem da rules then dem da rules" which caught on. But I considered myself to have both Management and employees interests in mind. I am the sort of person to keep documents and photos, in general any evidence of Issues that have been ignored or need to be addressed. My intent for these things were not to prove any cases i have against my employer but mostly to prove how much we had improved and how far we had come. I have shown some of these photos to management to show certain improvements and the improvements have been acknowledged by them.

For whatever reason now they want rid of me and i never wanted it this way but they have backed me into a corner and the only thing left for me to do is throw everything I have at them. Now I know why they wanted me to sign the settlement agreement so quick. Now the next question i would ask is, how do i proceed.
At the moment they want me to sign and accept 2 weeks wages but i have not had any official meeting and have not made any requests yet just this informal offer .

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Can you confirm:
1. You've worked there for 3-4 years?
2. The disciplinary hearing has already been held but you haven't been informed yet of the outcome decision.

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Can you confirm:
1. You've worked there for 3-4 years?
2. The disciplinary hearing has already been held but you haven't been informed yet of the outcome decision.

Yes it will be 4 years in April

He hasn't informed me of any outcome yet but he does want to know if I'm willing to accept the 2 weeks wages under a settlement agreement. I need to inform him in the morning.

Cheers
GB

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

A new development after a telephone call to my employer is that there is no offer any more and he has sent the paperwork of to his advisers yesterday afternoon and is now awaiting there reply on what to do next.

This is fine if the wish to play some game but how can any one make any fair judgement on this without any statement from me. I have never been asked to give one. The questions within the meeting were created to extract short answers. e.g Did I have an arguement...Yes.. I had no chance to explain the build up to it, what he said, what i said.

Does anyone think i should phone this company up and offer to send them my statement, this might then prove whether my employer is using them or not. I have not mentioned the advisor's company's name just in case this is wrong.


Cheers
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Earlier in this thread you've referred to a disciplinary meeting and also said that you have not had any official meeting.

Which is it?
Have you attended a disciplinary hearing? Yes?No?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Yes I have attended the disciplinary meeting and was informed yesterday that i have been dismissed.

cheers
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Were you informed of your dismissal in writing?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

This was by phone he says he will inform me in writing but was unwilling to confirm any details just that i had been dismissed and all the details would be in the letter

Cheers
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

OK, when you get the letter post it up here.

Does the advisor Company name start with a P?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

No it starts with an A and i am sure of that.


Cheers

GB

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

OK, when you get the letter post it up here.

Does the advisor Company name start with a P?

Hi Mariefab

Here is my dismissal letter which is dated 12th Jan, dispatched 14th Jan and received today 15th Jan. I have re-typed it word for word

Confirmation of dismissal


I am writing to confirm that, following the hearing held on the 6th January,2016, it was decided that your employment with x x x should be terminated on the grounds of some other substantial reason i.e your
repeated breaches of our trust and confidence in you.


The reason for this decision is based on the matters of concern outlined to you in our letter of 24th December 2015 namely:


Taking part in activities which cause the company to lose faith in your trust and confidence.


Further particulars being:
On Monday 14th December 2015 you acted in an aggressive and threatening manner to two employees, which made them feel uncomfortable and stressed.


Also on 15th December 2015 for no apparent reason you threw a desk Christmas tree across the office and stormed out of the door, this was captured on CCTV footage and, if it had made contact with another
person, this would have been classed as an assault, and could have potentially caused a serious injury. Indeed if that had been the case that employee could have taken out criminal charges against you.


You will also recall that after the formal meeting on the 6th January 2016 I had a without prejudice conversation with you, for clarification this is an off the record discussion which should not be refered to outside the
meeting. On 12th January 2015 you advised me that you had been told that whatever i had to say to you in tha without prejudice meeting it should be put in writing to you. This is another example where we have
lost trust in you and therefore again adds to the breakdown of the working relationship.


The actions outlined above represent a blatant breach of company rules and procedures and a serious breach of our trust and confidence


You are aware that we, as a company have a duty of care, to you, our other employees and members of the general public and therefore these actions cannot be tolerated.


Your dismissal is effective immediately and your final day of employment is therefore 12th January 2016 you will receive 3 weeks pay in lieu of notice in accordance with your statutory entitlement. This will of course be subjected to normal deductions of tax and national insurance contributions


You have the right to appeal against your dismisall. You must submit your appeal in writing to X X X by Tuesday 19th January 2015. You should state the grounds for appeal in full, lodging an appeal will however
not delay the dismissal taking place.


If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me.

As before I am not going to defend or accuse, i will just answer questions and supply you with any information you require

Thanks again for taking an interest

Cheers
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

Do you wish to appeal the decision?

[Ginger Black]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

I do wish to appeal but I can not see it getting me anywhere. I have had disagreements with this director in the past and have been a victim to his constant abuse of his position of power. I hope you understand that last sentence, I don't want say anything to sway the forums opinion, and like you have said it doesn't matter how badly i have been treated in the past its the reason for the disciplinary that's the concern.

I understand the professional code and why the MD has got to back him, if not for him then for the sake of the company, it would not look good to the rest of the employees and customers to see them disagree. And he is also the MD's brother in law married to his sister who is also a director.

I believe the dismissal was unfair based on the allegations and the only truth being about the Christmas tree which was a single moment of rage in an empty office.
I think in the above letter he is making a point of trust and confidence breach with no grounds to do so. He has wanted me out for a long time and is determined to make it stick.

I don't believe his procedure and actions within that, was fair and just and his intention to dismiss whatever were obvious from the start.

If you would like to view all the documents (not many considering how long its took) I would be happy to send them to you privately (Mariefab).

I'll let you post your opinions before I write another essay

Cheers
GB

[mariefab]

Re: I will let you make up your own minds...

I agree that it appears that they were determined to dismiss you from the start and that appealing probably won't result in a change of mind.
But, now that you've said that the office was empty when you threw the Christmas tree, I think that you may have sufficient grounds to make an unfair dismissal claim to an Employment Tribunal. (Their earlier form suggests that if you did submit such a claim this may result in a better settlement offer.)

You certainly have grounds to appeal. They've committed, in writing, to 3 reasons for the dismissal. So, let's make a start on demolishing them where possible.

You will also recall that after the formal meeting on the 6th January 2016 I had a without prejudice conversation with you, for clarification this is an off the record discussion which should not be refered to outside the meeting. On 12th January 2015 you advised me that you had been told that whatever i had to say to you in tha without prejudice meeting it should be put in writing to you. This is another example where we have lost trust in you and therefore again adds to the breakdown of the working relationship.

Did you (a) say anything that suggested that you had passed on details about the settlement offer or other parts of the WP conversation?
Or, did you (b) say something that only confirmed that you'd told someone that a WP conversation had been held?
If it was (b) and all you said is that you'd been informed that what was said in a WP meeting should be put in writing, this additional charge is without merit.
It would have been more accurate if they had written, 'for clarification this is an off the record discussion the contents of which should not be refered to outside the meeting.'

Also on 15th December 2015 for no apparent reason you threw a desk Christmas tree across the office and stormed out of the door, this was captured on CCTV footage and, if it had made contact with another person, this would have been classed as an assault, and could have potentially caused a serious injury. Indeed if that had been the case that employee could have taken out criminal charges against you.

Well yes, but the office was empty and this would be confirmed on the CCTV footage. So, in this case, none of those consequences were even possible.
There were other potential consequences. E.g. damage to the tree or to other Company property. Happily, for you, these potential consequences haven't formed part of the allegations or the reason for dismissal so it's too late for them to use them now.

It's always better to keep all relevant information on the thread. But, if you really don't feel comfortable posting the documents here you can pm them to me.