Acknowledge of Service without a Particulars of Claim - CCMCC

[jaguarsuk]

Just got to the end of the letter... trainee solicitor, explains a lot! Well, you are about to aid their training with a lesson!

Here's what I have so far, I need what I asked for in post #124 to finish it:

Redraft required.

[jaguarsuk]

Please note( after you have read it) that we do have 3 quotes. We havent given them to the other side as the judge himself said that would come at disclosure time). The selection of witnesses was allocated to happen from the 10th to 24th July and we havent received a single thing about their experts list so not sure why they are saying they are going to raise an application.

I'm drafting you a response, but I need to see the order or you need to type out this part verbatim. I need to know exactly what obligation is put on what party.

Also, have they filed a Defence to Counterclaim at all?

[jaguarsuk]

Thanks Jaguarsuk

What happened is that on the 9th July we received the without prejudice communication from their new solicitors.
Then on the 10th July with one minute to spare, they emailed us their reply to our schedule of issues. They also sent a covering letter that they are now on court record as acting for the other side.

My gut feeling is that they are just forwarding stuff for the other side with a sprinkling of legal stuff, The schedule they sent us was not what i'd expect any solicitor to have put together. It was a diatribe of how they are innocent and how we have sabotaged the build and how wrong we are about the industry standards. They haven't put their remedial costs in it either but just disparaged ours instead. Also the without prejudice letter also seems in some areas to be word for word what the other side would / have said.

BTW - its the other side that started the court process so they can hardly accuse us of not following CPR 1... Plus we have followed the rules and directions the court has laid out.

Anyway aside from that, the without prejudice letter is attached here redacted.

Please note( after you have read it) that we do have 3 quotes. We havent given them to the other side as the judge himself said that would come at disclosure time). The selection of witnesses was allocated to happen from the 10th to 24th July and we havent received a single thing about their experts list so not sure why they are saying they are going to raise an application... PLUS - they have said this all in a without prejudice letter so cant tell the court any of it yet !!

Okay, so you should receive a Notice of Acting from the court, until you do all correspondence to the claimant whether it is any response to this letter or serving of court documents go to him directly not the solicitor.

That letter boils my blood, typical "I think I'm better than you" solicitor drivel. Just because they have headed something without prejudice doesn't make it so, but their language tells me far from it being clear to this practice your counter claim in unlikely to succeed they are terrified it will.

The stupidity of someone trying to be so elitist is beyond belief, to be talking about the three quotes in respect of the defence and then suggesting you have not provided copies of the quotes for the counter claim is utter idiocy.

Has the claimant been equally as thick and asked for copies of the quotes as suggested in the letter?

[Ssssssssss]

Yes, if you redact it we can take a look and advise.

Regardless of this letter they are in breach of the order of the court and you need to address that by writing to the court to inform them. They were ordered to do something this offer to settle is not what they were ordered to do.

Thanks Jaguarsuk

What happened is that on the 9th July we received the without prejudice communication from their new solicitors.
Then on the 10th July with one minute to spare, they emailed us their reply to our schedule of issues. They also sent a covering letter that they are now on court record as acting for the other side.

My gut feeling is that they are just forwarding stuff for the other side with a sprinkling of legal stuff, The schedule they sent us was not what i'd expect any solicitor to have put together. It was a diatribe of how they are innocent and how we have sabotaged the build and how wrong we are about the industry standards. They haven't put their remedial costs in it either but just disparaged ours instead. Also the without prejudice letter also seems in some areas to be word for word what the other side would / have said.

BTW - its the other side that started the court process so they can hardly accuse us of not following CPR 1... Plus we have followed the rules and directions the court has laid out.

Anyway aside from that, the without prejudice letter is attached here redacted.

Please note( after you have read it) that we do have 3 quotes. We havent given them to the other side as the judge himself said that would come at disclosure time). The selection of witnesses was allocated to happen from the 10th to 24th July and we havent received a single thing about their experts list so not sure why they are saying they are going to raise an application... PLUS - they have said this all in a without prejudice letter so cant tell the court any of it yet !!

[jaguarsuk]

Hi all,

So on the eve of when the other side are meant to send us their reply to our schedule of issues (10th July), we have just received a letter from a solicitor which is headed without prejudice as to costs.

Is there anyone willing to take a look at the letter at all ?

It covers a lot of things and i know that some of it is just bullying tactics. But they have also offered to settle the case so neither side wins and we drop it.

I can sanitise it and post it if someone is willing to read it and give us an initial thoughts ?

Yes, if you redact it we can take a look and advise.

Regardless of this letter they are in breach of the order of the court and you need to address that by writing to the court to inform them. They were ordered to do something this offer to settle is not what they were ordered to do.

[Ssssssssss]

Hi all,

So on the eve of when the other side are meant to send us their reply to our schedule of issues (10th July), we have just received a letter from a solicitor which is headed without prejudice as to costs.

Is there anyone willing to take a look at the letter at all ?

It covers a lot of things and i know that some of it is just bullying tactics. But they have also offered to settle the case so neither side wins and we drop it.

I can sanitise it and post it if someone is willing to read it and give us an initial thoughts ?

[Ssssssssss]

In building disputes a scott schedule is normally used, im surprised if the Court hasnt asked for that, which allows you to input your issues, the costs you have, and then the builder gets his chance to reply, and at trial the Judge gives his ruling on each point.

I posted a link above on these schedules and how they are used. I agree with Jag that you need to comply with the order, if you cant get a builder to quote in time then why not look at individual trades, im dealing with a building dispute at the moment and we have individual quotes, where we dont have a quote we have simply put TBC in the scott schedule

Hi pt2537 and Jaguarsuk

Thanks for coming back to me.

So pt2537 i guess what the judge has asked for is pretty much a scott schedule as he has asked for list of issues, cost and then this needs to be sent to builder for him to input his reply and cost next to it.

So if i can give an example of one issue - this might help to make me understand how i could input that.

So there is one broken tile in the window reveal. To replace this tile properly, the underlying and fundamental issues with the tiling and layout need to be rectified and then the broken tile can be rectified after that. So the tiler used dot and dab tiling which is not industry standard and all the window reveals have been bumped out with adhesive unnecessarily.

So to rectify the broken tile if done in isolation, would be to remove the tile and replace it. BUT to do the job properly and rectify the underlying issue BEFORE rectifying the broken tile, you'd have to take the whole reveal out and sort it all out.

So how do you price the item that says "broken tile in window reveal" ???? Sorting underlying issues is £3400. Sorting out just the tile in isolation which technically can't be done properly would be £50.

I think i am going to have to ask the court for more time. I will write to them and see what they say. I've managed to spend some time with a builder today but he and i both got confused about things like the example above.

Any pointers ?

[pt2537]

In building disputes a scott schedule is normally used, im surprised if the Court hasnt asked for that, which allows you to input your issues, the costs you have, and then the builder gets his chance to reply, and at trial the Judge gives his ruling on each point.

I posted a link above on these schedules and how they are used. I agree with Jag that you need to comply with the order, if you cant get a builder to quote in time then why not look at individual trades, im dealing with a building dispute at the moment and we have individual quotes, where we dont have a quote we have simply put TBC in the scott schedule

[jaguarsuk]

Yeah that’s not going to sit well with the court, they asked for itemised by item not a total.

You need to do your best to comply with the order of the court or else contact the court to ask for an extension stating the reason why?

[Ssssssssss]

Hi jaguarsuk,. The quote the builder (the other side), gave us had itemised things but in the cost column it just said 0. Then he gave an overall cost only.

Ok. Sounds like this is going to be a lot more work.

If I can't get a builder in in time to get me the separated costs, then should I just send it as is or error an explanation against each item that I couldn't separate the cost?

[pt2537]

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...-schedule-note

[jaguarsuk]

Okay, so if the builders have provided itemised quotes then you will be able to explain the defect and apply a cost of those.

Any issues you do not have a quote for you are going to have to get quotes to apply a cost.

[Ssssssssss]

Did he say you have to file a scott schedule? Is that what he ordered?

OK so we have the full order from the judge now and it say

The defendants to by x date and time file with court and send copy to claimants a schedule setting out each item of alleged faulty workmanship on defective goods supplied together with the remedial cost of each, giving each a number.

The claimant do by x file with the court and send a copy to the defendants a schedule in reply to each using the same numbers by way of reference.

The parties then agree a single joint expert xyz.. Then when the expert report is created, ask the judge for further directions.

SO

I can write a schedule but i would not have a clue about each items remedial costs as I think the court has failed to realise that
1. the wrong tiles and goods were supplied (contractual issue)
2. that the method of fixing the tiles effectively means that it all has to come out.
3. The quotes we got do not split out each defect and are effectively new quotes because none of the builders said they would patch up the work as they would not accept liability for someone elses work.

How the heck can we split out each item ? And I only have effectively a week to do that. I can get a list of issues done by then but i don't have a clue how to put a monetary figure against each item.

[Ssssssssss]

No he didn't use those words. He said I need to write a schedule of issues and I said what would that be like a table. He said it would be the issue and a description of the issue.

Then the other side would need to put their response to each issue.

Then all the defence, particulars, counterclaim and this schedule of issues (so my list of issues with builders response) would be sent to an expert. He said expert can't be Joe blog builder. Must be surveyor or architect.

We suggested tile association in the meeting but other side suggested bikbbi. But we have had serious run ins with that organisation over time and we suspect builder may know someone there. Although we have no proof.

But anyway, so if we aren't able to agree an expert, we submit 3, they submit 3. Judge picks one of the six. Buy given his bad workmanship, surely we would be allowed to challenge a report if it doesn't reflect reality!?

Should I put absolutely everything into my list of issues/descriptions? Eg I've said they have not conformed to British standards and tile association standards for tiling. Should I list why I think that (given the other side are manipulating snippets of the standard to suit their narrative)

[pt2537]

We have had our preliminary hearing.

Didnt start well given the judge had had his bathroom done by our builders some years ago !! He said that we could carry on today if we wanted to or swap judges, so we carried on. Then he said the case will transfer to another judge after today.

Judge didnt want to hear our issues with the claimants experts independence unfortunately.

He said

1. - I have to write a schedule of issues
2. - The other side has to respond to that schedule of issues
3. - We then have to pick an expert and if we cant pick one, we have to write to the court and the court will pick one of the 6 submitted ( 3x builders side, 3x Our side).

Said that the expert MUST be a surveyor or official body but it absolutely could not be joe bloggs down the street builder. It must be official.

I told him that we had concerns over the independence of the experts that might be submitted on the other side and that many builders we have found know our dodgy builder. The judge said it doesn't matter because the expert cant be joe bloggs builder down the street.

Anyway, we therefore couldn't get our pick of expert or sway the judge to pick from 2 of ours and 1 of the other sides.

Any advice now ? About writing the schedules or about making sure we get our expert ? We know the other side wont agree any of ours and vice versa so it will come down to a judge i am sure.

Did he say you have to file a scott schedule? Is that what he ordered?