Acknowledge of Service without a Particulars of Claim - CCMCC

[jaguarsuk]

To me those are not two issues they are one.

Tiling - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps and Dot and Dab method causing uneven tiles - £3,000

That's how it should have originally been laid out on the schedule. The Tiling is the issue, and the cost to correct it is £3,000 the rest is an explanation as to why it's an issue.

You have been too granular with the schedule it would seem, again in your desire to over inform you have complicated things down the line. Basically you need to correct the schedule, you're not rewriting it as all the same issues are there and are just reformatting it to make sense.

[Ssssssssss]

OK Well i guess if the other side aren't happy they will make it known anyway.

My head is in a bit of a spin with this schedule. Maybe i don't fundamentally understand it which might be causing the issue.

So my understanding is that each item should have a cost and that cost should be based on - if that was the only thing wrong then this work would need to be done and this would cost X. Is that right ?

But then what do i do where i have for example

Item 1 - Dot and Dab tiling - Requires a full re-tile. £3000
Item 2 - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps - Requires a full re-tile. £3000

So both item 1 and item 2 would have £3000 against each item as above. But that doesn't mean from the courts perspective that the claim is 6000. It means that the same work will be needed to rectify it. So the claim overall value is 3000.

Am i doing something wrong ? The two items are separate issues but require the same remedy...
I can't see how else to do it when the work is the same to rectify the two different issues.

Ive been told not to re-write the entire schedule I've done but just add a column so i don't have the option to rewrite it all. But adding a figure will result in what i described above.

FYI - the original order we got from the judge regarding the schedule way back when said " the defendants do by x on x day file with the court and send a copy to the claimants a schedule setting out each item of alleged faulty workmanship on defective goods supplied together with the remedial cost of each, giving each a number." which is why we structured the document the way we did...

Nothing about what to do when the remedy is the same for 2 different faults.

[Ssssssssss]

The court would decide, if you send the schedule it probably won't come to the attention of a judge until the report from the expert is filed. Only if you didn't file would it come in front of a judge.

The could write to the court and request a judge look at it to say it doesn't comply, but if you do as the order directs that would be futile.

OK Well i guess if the other side aren't happy they will make it known anyway.

My head is in a bit of a spin with this schedule. Maybe i don't fundamentally understand it which might be causing the issue.

So my understanding is that each item should have a cost and that cost should be based on - if that was the only thing wrong then this work would need to be done and this would cost X. Is that right ?

But then what do i do where i have for example

Item 1 - Dot and Dab tiling - Requires a full re-tile. £3000
Item 2 - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps - Requires a full re-tile. £3000

So both item 1 and item 2 would have £3000 against each item as above. But that doesn't mean from the courts perspective that the claim is 6000. It means that the same work will be needed to rectify it. So the claim overall value is 3000.

Am i doing something wrong ? The two items are separate issues but require the same remedy...
I can't see how else to do it when the work is the same to rectify the two different issues.

Ive been told not to re-write the entire schedule I've done but just add a column so i don't have the option to rewrite it all. But adding a figure will result in what i described above.

[jaguarsuk]

The court would decide, if you send the schedule it probably won't come to the attention of a judge until the report from the expert is filed. Only if you didn't file would it come in front of a judge.

The could write to the court and request a judge look at it to say it doesn't comply, but if you do as the order directs that would be futile.

[Ssssssssss]

Exactly, list of issues accompanied by the cost of it and nothing else. They then have a clear order to put what they believe to be the cost against each item and then then send it to the expert.

Be clever enough to send them a copy and let them know that you have sent a copy to the expert with instruction that if the claimant doesn't meet the 14 day deadline to add his costs the expert should proceed with your copy of the schedule to file the report by the date ordered. Then send a copy to the expert with those instructions.

FWIW I don't think they'll file another application having not gotten a costs order for this one, I think they won't want to spend that sort of money again.

OK I'll make sure i do all of that. :-)

Just a quick question. Who decides if we have met the unless order. As in, how does the unless order kick in ? Would the judge review our schedule and decide if it complies OR can the other side write to court and say it doesn't comply ? It will of course comply but just don't understand who decides ?

[jaguarsuk]

Exactly, list of issues accompanied by the cost of it and nothing else. They then have a clear order to put what they believe to be the cost against each item and then then send it to the expert.

Be clever enough to send them a copy and let them know that you have sent a copy to the expert with instruction that if the claimant doesn't meet the 14 day deadline to add his costs the expert should proceed with your copy of the schedule to file the report by the date ordered. Then send a copy to the expert with those instructions.

FWIW I don't think they'll file another application having not gotten a costs order for this one, I think they won't want to spend that sort of money again.

[Ssssssssss]

Explanatory notes only open up ideas to the other side to challenge things, never offer more information than has been asked for.

If the builder says it needs a full refit, then you ask them to itemise a full refit. If they are going to buy materials and do the work they must know how much each bit costs or how else do they give you a quote, the problem you have is that the builders are being asked to do a lot of paperwork and feeling they probably won't get the job, so whats the point.

Perhaps a surveyor similar to the expert who agrees in advance that they'll be able to break down the costs might be a better idea as they are being paid for costing the schedule and not speculatively quoting for a job.

BTW - thanks for all the info and support and helping us with this strike out application. And just the moral support too. Everything really !

At least he will order expert to get on with it after this next update to the schedules. So its all good hopefully.

My guessing is that the other side may wait till our schedule is re-submitted and then claim again it isn't right and we should be struck out. That might be their final try.

We therefore need to make sure a number is against everything. No further details and notes. Just a number.

At least today is over now.

[Ssssssssss]

Explanatory notes only open up ideas to the other side to challenge things, never offer more information than has been asked for.

If the builder says it needs a full refit, then you ask them to itemise a full refit. If they are going to buy materials and do the work they must know how much each bit costs or how else do they give you a quote, the problem you have is that the builders are being asked to do a lot of paperwork and feeling they probably won't get the job, so whats the point.

Perhaps a surveyor similar to the expert who agrees in advance that they'll be able to break down the costs might be a better idea as they are being paid for costing the schedule and not speculatively quoting for a job.

Re notes - yes absolutely - lesson well and truly learnt on that one. I'm going to zip it with the extra info now. It's only ever gotten us in trouble.

Interestingly the judge mentioned a surveyor too but said it would probably cost us too much and its a small claims but it was an option. I'll try and see if i can get one at a reasonable costs. I think someone else on this forum posted ages ago about going to individual traders instead of builders specifically too. I'll try and do that too.

[jaguarsuk]

Explanatory notes only open up ideas to the other side to challenge things, never offer more information than has been asked for.

If the builder says it needs a full refit, then you ask them to itemise a full refit. If they are going to buy materials and do the work they must know how much each bit costs or how else do they give you a quote, the problem you have is that the builders are being asked to do a lot of paperwork and feeling they probably won't get the job, so whats the point.

Perhaps a surveyor similar to the expert who agrees in advance that they'll be able to break down the costs might be a better idea as they are being paid for costing the schedule and not speculatively quoting for a job.

[Ssssssssss]

Yeap - he was way more direct than the other judge. The other judge let everyone talk to everyone else and didn't really say anyway. This one was a bit more procedural so in some ways that was good.

Great re his application costs. That's good. I didn't realise he wouldn't get them regardless.

They haven't told us they have got rid of their solicitors completely. I think maybe they will use them still but just not as much. ?

We have had a builder do exactly as you said. We gave the schedule and we tried to break everything down. We did we thought. We thought we had i mean. The judge though kept disagreeing with us. I think maybe my referring to a point g and the costs in the box is all the costs listed in point g probably confused the matter. I'm now though at a loss as to how we can get builder to do any more. We tried and tried. We gave 4 builders the schedule. None of them wanted to break it down. Only one did but still said some of it just can't be broken down cause it needs a full re-tile. :-(

We honestly tried so hard before. We will do our best and come what may, put a figure in every box but if we can't break it down in some areas then what can we do ?

Yes no more notes in the document. I think us trying to explain ourselves in the document has backfired somewhat.

But anyway, what he has given us is hard to do but at least he didn't strike us out. Just told us to put the schedule right so they didn't get what they wanted either which was to strike out and get rid of the expert.

[Ssssssssss]

Pretty much as I predicted in post #261.

You basically need to do a proper schedule with all the costs for each item. You need to get a builder to quote itemised for every bit of work that needs doing, I'd suggest giving the contractor your schedule and asking for them to put a cost to each item.

The judge was right to rebuke you for talking directly to them, everything is addressed via the bench. He won't get his costs of his application or solicitor even if he were to win, he would have got them at this hearing if he was going to get them.

It's good that he can't afford the solicitor anymore, it's you against him and should mean delay tactics like this one will stop.

You need to comply with the order this time, no notes about having to add things later, it needs to be what had been asked for by the date it's been ordered to be filed.

Yeap - he was way more direct than the other judge. The other judge let everyone talk to everyone else and didn't really say anyway. This one was a bit more procedural so in some ways that was good.

Great re his application costs. That's good. I didn't realise he wouldn't get them regardless.

They haven't told us they have got rid of their solicitors completely. I think maybe they will use them still but just not as much. ?

We have had a builder do exactly as you said. We gave the schedule and we tried to break everything down. We did we thought. We thought we had i mean. The judge though kept disagreeing with us. I think maybe my referring to a point g and the costs in the box is all the costs listed in point g probably confused the matter. I'm now though at a loss as to how we can get builder to do any more. We tried and tried. We gave 4 builders the schedule. None of them wanted to break it down. Only one did but still said some of it just can't be broken down cause it needs a full re-tile. :-(

We honestly tried so hard before. We will do our best and come what may, put a figure in every box but if we can't break it down in some areas then what can we do ?

Yes no more notes in the document. I think us trying to explain ourselves in the document has backfired somewhat.

[jaguarsuk]

Pretty much as I predicted in post #261.

You basically need to do a proper schedule with all the costs for each item. You need to get a builder to quote itemised for every bit of work that needs doing, I'd suggest giving the contractor your schedule and asking for them to put a cost to each item.

The judge was right to rebuke you for talking directly to them, everything is addressed via the bench. He won't get his costs of his application or solicitor even if he were to win, he would have got them at this hearing if he was going to get them.

It's good that he can't afford the solicitor anymore, it's you against him and should mean delay tactics like this one will stop.

You need to comply with the order this time, no notes about having to add things later, it needs to be what had been asked for by the date it's been ordered to be filed.

[Ssssssssss]

Hello Jaguarsuk. We had the hearing.

As expected it was a different judge and I think he had already made his mind up what he was going to do before anyone had spoken. That's what it seemed like to me anyway. He didn't even refer to the witness statements at all.

The other side's legal representative didn't come at all. It was just the claimants. They said they had already racked up a £3000 bill and so were trying to reduce their costs.

The judge let me speak on my parents behalf but didn't let the claimants father speak for the claimant which is good.

Anyway, the judge, before anyone had spoken said this case seems to be getting more complicated as time goes by but essentially if you strip it back, there is something there. He said he wasn't going to strike out any claims today. (This is before anyone had really spoken).

But he then went straight onto the schedule. He said that we hadn't complied with the order.

I said that where we had written that an item was an issue we had pointed to point g in our notes and what we were saying is to add those figures together and put the number in the schedule. The judge then said while that was helpful, he wanted a figure in the box. We kept saying there were only 2 things with TBC's but he just wouldn't listen at all. He kept saying that things need to be split out and we kept saying we have as much as we can and what can we do if the builder says something requires a full re-tile. He said that the reason to have the remedial costs split out is to help the court to decide amounts. But he wasn't very clear as we kept saying we had done that and he kept saying we hadn't. So he had basically decided we had not met the court order regarding schedules. He also kept saying that a broken tile isn't going to require a complete re-fit etc etc.

We also tried to bring up the example of electrical works saying the claimant had said they hadn't finished and hadn't filled out a cost in their schedule. The judge said then how can you cost it if you don't know what it is. So i explained we had costed for a builder to come and check the electrics. We said that the claimant hadn't filled their schedule out either. He said well how would the claimant know what to put against the item. i said they are the ones who said they haven't completed the work so they should know. He said that they couldn't fill theirs out without us filling ours out. And we went round in circles like that.

We kept asking the judge specifics but essentially he said you put the figures in. I don't think he cares what they are as long as there is a figure in the box ( so to speak ). He said we run the risk of not having a claim if the figure is not broken down. ETC ETC ETc. We are kind of at a loss as to what to do when we have asked the builders to break it down and they have all done the best they can but have insisted it all needs ripping out !!!!! HELP !

Anyway, the judge did not entertain the other sides attempts to get the quotes. He said he didn't see how they were relevant at this stage whatsoever. They would only be lump sums and they weren't going to help him break the figures down in the schedule. So at least that should hopefully shut them up on the quotes once and for all.

Anyway, the outcome is that the judge has asked us to add a column to our schedule with the updated remedial costs. Unless order giving us 21 days or the claim will be struck out.
Then 14 day for the claimant to update his numbers against each item but not the content of the schedule.

Send these revisions to the expert.

Then a further 21 days for the expert to file his report after that. This will bring his report into the new year at this stage.

The other side asked if they could get their costs back for the application and the judge said, lets wait till the final trial and see who wins. They then asked about their £3000 of legal costs which the judge didn't really comment on. ( the judge didn't like it when i turned to the claimant and said it isn't our fault you have that bill ).

The judge then urged both sides to reach a compromise and settle and it was unlikely that either side would get what they want. It always is.

So in short, he had already decided what he was going to do. Didn't listen to anything we said about the schedule or theirs. We need to some how update the schedule to something he is happy with without really knowing how we can. But the pros are he didn't strike out. He didn't make a costs order against us either and he didn't order the quotes to be disclosed.

Oh the judge also said it was right for them to stop the expert because he didn't have the remedial costs so they did the right thing !!!!!!!!!

[Ssssssssss]

The way I see this going is that their application will be defeated, the Judge will direct the expert to get on with it and set a new deadline for the report and possibly order disclosure. If so then that's good for you, the fact they haven't given an interim order to order the expert to stop signals they already aren't getting what they want and you just want that to carry through to the whole application.

Make sure you ask for costs if you win, you want costs of parking, unpaid time you have had to take off work to attend the hearing if any, costs of postage and any other loss you have incurred because of the application. Ask if because of the hours spent to prepare for the application by producing a WS and researching can be claimed at LiP rate, judge will probably say no, but don't ask don't get.

Fingers crossed it goes that way. OK ill make a note of those costs to ask for. IF the judge does order disclosure then can we say to him but hold on, we haven't had any of the documents we have asked for previously since last year. And then say that if an order is made that it be made against them too ?

[jaguarsuk]

Thanks Jaguarsuk. It'll be a different judge this time but i really do hope they can see this for what it is straight away.

Will let you know. If there is anything else we should ask for at the end regarding further directions etc then let us know. We might as well ask while we are there i guess.

The way I see this going is that their application will be defeated, the Judge will direct the expert to get on with it and set a new deadline for the report and possibly order disclosure. If so then that's good for you, the fact they haven't given an interim order to order the expert to stop signals they already aren't getting what they want and you just want that to carry through to the whole application.

Make sure you ask for costs if you win, you want costs of parking, unpaid time you have had to take off work to attend the hearing if any, costs of postage and any other loss you have incurred because of the application. Ask if because of the hours spent to prepare for the application by producing a WS and researching can be claimed at LiP rate, judge will probably say no, but don't ask don't get.