Acknowledge of Service without a Particulars of Claim - CCMCC

[Ssssssssss]

Exactly, list of issues accompanied by the cost of it and nothing else. They then have a clear order to put what they believe to be the cost against each item and then then send it to the expert.

Be clever enough to send them a copy and let them know that you have sent a copy to the expert with instruction that if the claimant doesn't meet the 14 day deadline to add his costs the expert should proceed with your copy of the schedule to file the report by the date ordered. Then send a copy to the expert with those instructions.

FWIW I don't think they'll file another application having not gotten a costs order for this one, I think they won't want to spend that sort of money again.

OK I'll make sure i do all of that. :-)

Just a quick question. Who decides if we have met the unless order. As in, how does the unless order kick in ? Would the judge review our schedule and decide if it complies OR can the other side write to court and say it doesn't comply ? It will of course comply but just don't understand who decides ?

[jaguarsuk]

The court would decide, if you send the schedule it probably won't come to the attention of a judge until the report from the expert is filed. Only if you didn't file would it come in front of a judge.

The could write to the court and request a judge look at it to say it doesn't comply, but if you do as the order directs that would be futile.

[Ssssssssss]

The court would decide, if you send the schedule it probably won't come to the attention of a judge until the report from the expert is filed. Only if you didn't file would it come in front of a judge.

The could write to the court and request a judge look at it to say it doesn't comply, but if you do as the order directs that would be futile.

OK Well i guess if the other side aren't happy they will make it known anyway.

My head is in a bit of a spin with this schedule. Maybe i don't fundamentally understand it which might be causing the issue.

So my understanding is that each item should have a cost and that cost should be based on - if that was the only thing wrong then this work would need to be done and this would cost X. Is that right ?

But then what do i do where i have for example

Item 1 - Dot and Dab tiling - Requires a full re-tile. £3000
Item 2 - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps - Requires a full re-tile. £3000

So both item 1 and item 2 would have £3000 against each item as above. But that doesn't mean from the courts perspective that the claim is 6000. It means that the same work will be needed to rectify it. So the claim overall value is 3000.

Am i doing something wrong ? The two items are separate issues but require the same remedy...
I can't see how else to do it when the work is the same to rectify the two different issues.

Ive been told not to re-write the entire schedule I've done but just add a column so i don't have the option to rewrite it all. But adding a figure will result in what i described above.

[Ssssssssss]

OK Well i guess if the other side aren't happy they will make it known anyway.

My head is in a bit of a spin with this schedule. Maybe i don't fundamentally understand it which might be causing the issue.

So my understanding is that each item should have a cost and that cost should be based on - if that was the only thing wrong then this work would need to be done and this would cost X. Is that right ?

But then what do i do where i have for example

Item 1 - Dot and Dab tiling - Requires a full re-tile. £3000
Item 2 - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps - Requires a full re-tile. £3000

So both item 1 and item 2 would have £3000 against each item as above. But that doesn't mean from the courts perspective that the claim is 6000. It means that the same work will be needed to rectify it. So the claim overall value is 3000.

Am i doing something wrong ? The two items are separate issues but require the same remedy...
I can't see how else to do it when the work is the same to rectify the two different issues.

Ive been told not to re-write the entire schedule I've done but just add a column so i don't have the option to rewrite it all. But adding a figure will result in what i described above.

FYI - the original order we got from the judge regarding the schedule way back when said " the defendants do by x on x day file with the court and send a copy to the claimants a schedule setting out each item of alleged faulty workmanship on defective goods supplied together with the remedial cost of each, giving each a number." which is why we structured the document the way we did...

Nothing about what to do when the remedy is the same for 2 different faults.

[jaguarsuk]

To me those are not two issues they are one.

Tiling - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps and Dot and Dab method causing uneven tiles - £3,000

That's how it should have originally been laid out on the schedule. The Tiling is the issue, and the cost to correct it is £3,000 the rest is an explanation as to why it's an issue.

You have been too granular with the schedule it would seem, again in your desire to over inform you have complicated things down the line. Basically you need to correct the schedule, you're not rewriting it as all the same issues are there and are just reformatting it to make sense.

[Ssssssssss]

To me those are not two issues they are one.

Tiling - Layout Vertical setting out of tiles causing large gaps and Dot and Dab method causing uneven tiles - £3,000

That's how it should have originally been laid out on the schedule. The Tiling is the issue, and the cost to correct it is £3,000 the rest is an explanation as to why it's an issue.

You have been too granular with the schedule it would seem, again in your desire to over inform you have complicated things down the line. Basically you need to correct the schedule, you're not rewriting it as all the same issues are there and are just reformatting it to make sense.

I'm kicking myself. I wrote the schedule with the expert in mind not really thinking about the cost side of things.

I think i was kind of trying to do what you said above with the numbering and headings. Could you take a look ?

I put in a number 3 - Tiling issues (xXXXXX)

Then under that i put 3.1, 3.2 etc etc - which is the too granular bit you mentioned.

But judge is telling me to put a number in each box now. Should i maybe write to court and tell them its not possible and i need to change the layout ?

I'm so scared now of screwing this up further.

I've added the copy of it here - the schedule.

[jaguarsuk]

Merge the box for 3.1, .3.2 and 3.3 for cost and put in £3,000 as it is the complete cost of the tiling repair.

[Ssssssssss]

Merge the box for 3.1, .3.2 and 3.3 for cost and put in £3,000 as it is the complete cost of the tiling repair.

OK i'll attempt to do that throughout. I think i'm understanding now.

I've also put separately that the wrong tiles were bought.

Should I instead of separating this out, also add this to the overall Tiling issue ?
I'm assuming i would as the remedy is the same again which is a total tile re-fit.

So my tiling issue would be "different tiles to those contractually agreed have been installed and they have been install badly." or something like that ?

[jaguarsuk]

Yes add it to the tiling.

[Ssssssssss]

Yes add it to the tiling.

OK perfect. So tiling is sorted out.

The only question I think i have left is when something overlaps something else.

So I have

1. Tiling - different tiles to those contractually agreed have been installed and they have been install badly.
For this - cost includes Removal of all equipment (sink, shower etc) , retile, put back all equipment (sink Shower etc). This is because you can't re-tile without removing everything from the room first.

2. Shower Tray - the shower tray has not been installed properly, creaks, is scratched and is not the mobility shower level asked for.
For this - cost includes the price of a new shower tray PLUS the labour and materials to remove it and install the right one at the right level.

So - the shower tray issue's labour costs for removing the shower and reinstalling it has already been included in the tiling item because re-tiling means this has to be done too. So the shower tray cost is £200 goods which is the new shower tray, plus the labour to remove the old one and put the new one in which is already included in the retiling costs.

Do you know how i can sensibly articulate this in the costings ?

[jaguarsuk]

You need to find out how the builder calculated the labour element, then split the labour costs between the two.

[Ssssssssss]

You need to find out how the builder calculated the labour element, then split the labour costs between the two.

Hi Jaguarsuk.

So in the hearing, as we already discussed, the judge asked us to just add an extra column to the schedule etc. But obviously we discussed this with you and decided it wasn't possible in the format the document was in before.

The order has now come through though and says as follows :-

1. Unless the defendants comply with paragraph 1 of the order made 12th june 2019, by adding a column to the defendants schedule of complaint which contains the remedial cost and sending it to the court and the claimant by 4pm on 18th nov, the defence and counterclaim shall be struck out and the claimant entitled to request judgement on his claim.

2. The claimant shall by 4pm on 2nd dec referred to the remedial cost column only and send his reply to the defendants and the court.

3. the parties shall each send a copy at the additional column and replies and a copy of this order to the surface joiner expert.

4. the surface joiner expert shall then complete his report and file it at court and serve the parties by 4pm on 20th dec.

5. the file must then be referred to a deputy or district judge for directives as the whether statements, document and trial together.

6. costs of the claimant app 2nd sept referred to trial judge.

So i am concerned. The judge has been rather specific about what he said about just adding an extra column. But we already established that we couldn't really do that easily in the format it is currently in. Am i still complying with the order by doing what we said i should do which is re-arrange the layout of the table and combining rows ? Or should i do the above to the letter and maybe also do the revised layout version too ?

[Ssssssssss]

Hi Jaguarsuk.

So in the hearing, as we already discussed, the judge asked us to just add an extra column to the schedule etc. But obviously we discussed this with you and decided it wasn't possible in the format the document was in before.

The order has now come through though and says as follows :-

1. Unless the defendants comply with paragraph 1 of the order made 12th june 2019, by adding a column to the defendants schedule of complaint which contains the remedial cost and sending it to the court and the claimant by 4pm on 18th nov, the defence and counterclaim shall be struck out and the claimant entitled to request judgement on his claim.

2. The claimant shall by 4pm on 2nd dec referred to the remedial cost column only and send his reply to the defendants and the court.

3. the parties shall each send a copy at the additional column and replies and a copy of this order to the surface joiner expert.

4. the surface joiner expert shall then complete his report and file it at court and serve the parties by 4pm on 20th dec.

5. the file must then be referred to a deputy or district judge for directives as the whether statements, document and trial together.

6. costs of the claimant app 2nd sept referred to trial judge.

So i am concerned. The judge has been rather specific about what he said about just adding an extra column. But we already established that we couldn't really do that easily in the format it is currently in. Am i still complying with the order by doing what we said i should do which is re-arrange the layout of the table and combining rows ? Or should i do the above to the letter and maybe also do the revised layout version too ?

Just a thought but rather than physically changing the layout of the original table by moving rows around, would it cause less confusion if i instead add 2 extra columns (one for remedial notes and one for remedial cost ) - like the screenshot attached.

This would mean the table looks structurally exactly the same as the original and the new notes column can be used to explain where something has been merged with something else e.g. 1.1 merging with item 3 in relation to tiling.

The judge might then have less complaint about our compliance with his order to just add another column.

Maybe this way might satisfy the court order and also cause less confusion or complaint from the other side about changed layouts ?

[Ssssssssss]

Hi Jaguarsuk.

So in the hearing, as we already discussed, the judge asked us to just add an extra column to the schedule etc. But obviously we discussed this with you and decided it wasn't possible in the format the document was in before.

The order has now come through though and says as follows :-

1. Unless the defendants comply with paragraph 1 of the order made 12th june 2019, by adding a column to the defendants schedule of complaint which contains the remedial cost and sending it to the court and the claimant by 4pm on 18th nov, the defence and counterclaim shall be struck out and the claimant entitled to request judgement on his claim.

2. The claimant shall by 4pm on 2nd dec referred to the remedial cost column only and send his reply to the defendants and the court.

3. the parties shall each send a copy at the additional column and replies and a copy of this order to the surface joiner expert.

4. the surface joiner expert shall then complete his report and file it at court and serve the parties by 4pm on 20th dec.

5. the file must then be referred to a deputy or district judge for directives as the whether statements, document and trial together.

6. costs of the claimant app 2nd sept referred to trial judge.

So i am concerned. The judge has been rather specific about what he said about just adding an extra column. But we already established that we couldn't really do that easily in the format it is currently in. Am i still complying with the order by doing what we said i should do which is re-arrange the layout of the table and combining rows ? Or should i do the above to the letter and maybe also do the revised layout version too ?

btw - all the spelling issues in that order were written that way in the order. Bit weird. It seems like they have typed out the notes maybe. Bit strange. surface joiner expert for example !

[jaguarsuk]

You're going to have to stick to what the order says, by adding an explanation column you're just further complicating things.

You are going to have to find someone to break down the individual tasks and their costs with labour to remedy them.

You have to comply with the order or else you'll find your defence and counter claim struck out.

Hopefully you have engaged a surveyor or other professional who works to a fixed fee and as a result will not be bothered about the work involved in doing so as your deadline is 7 days away.