DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Craig
This is my understanding of the situation
When a signature is talked about this can be in the form of a company stamp, an initial or something similar so in this case it the form does hae what is classed as a signature on it.

So now we come to the application form
What exactly is on that form, not with it but on it
Is there an interest rate, procedures for repayment, either a credit limit or the way the credit limit will be determined? To be honest I can not see them at all. If they are not there is there any reference to where they will be and is that included.

When you look at the terms and conditions what if any are the penalty fees for missed payment etc and again what if any are on the terms from default.

I sent a CCA request of to BOS for a credit card and all I got back was an application form and a letter saying they could not supply a recon so wouldn't enforce .

If the application form is indeed that you can send a letter telling them that i.e its only an application form, there are lots of options to choose from here that should hopefully keep them going round in circles for a while. My only advice would be not to get involved in letter tennis.

Another thing to remember is that the law changes with different cases so for example in that blog it says they can not default a UE debt , well actually they can, that has been decided by a court. With a UE debt they can ask, pester, even issue a claim but if defended they will not get one.

Why not PM Andy58 or Mystery 1 as they are both good at this stuff

The form seems to be the original one, i.e. that is initially filled in and sent off, it is a poor quality copy (copy of a copy of a copy etc), my details are on it including "how long have you lived at this address" etc, any possible reference numbers are unreadable due to copy quality, the bank sort code is incorrect but have been informed maybe a branch merge could be the cause, the signature in my name can be read, the Trustcard Conditions of use are supplied but are completely illegible.

Is there an interest rate, procedures for repayment, either a credit limit or the way the credit limit will be determined? To be honest I can not see them at all. If they are not there is there any reference to where they will be and is that included. No interest rate is visible, or repayment procedures, credit limit etc ... it looks like the original application form request to be honest

When you look at the terms and conditions what if any are the penalty fees for missed payment etc and again what if any are on the terms from default. As I said above the Trustcard CoU are completely illegible, they look like the old mono 8-bit computer video digitizer scans, more than a proper photocopy

[Guest]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Regarding the creditors signature and the section 61 requirements.

The section says that the agreement is not properly executed, the key word here is properly. It does not mean that the agreement has not been executed in the absence of a signature just that it was not properly executed.

Section 65 says that if an agreement does not comply with the requirements of section 61 an enforcement order is required. An enforcement order is issued under section 127. This section will look at the amount of prejudice caused by the error and can decline to issue an order or modify the agreement dependent on the severity of the breach.

The lack of a creditors signature does not prejudice the debtor so there would be no sanction, the lack of a debtors signature however may indicate that he was not aware of the nature of the bargain and would be considered as severely prejudicial, in fact until April 2007 as we know an agreement could not be enforced without the debtors signature.

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Andy thank you for clearing that up , I always forget the reasons.

Craig from what you have said all they hae sent you is an application form and not the agreement. There are no PT's in that document.
So far it seems that they have not complied with your S78 request however they can put that right with a recon. If they were to do that you would then need to make an affirmative statement to the court that you did not sign any agreement with the PT's on it. Now this can work and it can fail, it did so recently but the debtor was classed as an unreliable witness. At this point with SB being maybe a year away you really have nothing to lose. A short letter to capquest just telling them that they have not complied with your S78 request (maybe include an extract from S78 that is a trick that was told to me by PlanB). I am sorry if I have confused you with all the options , any could work but I am finding KISS works best (Keep it simple stupid)

[Amethyst]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

There is definitely the interest rate on the CCA , its about then only bit I can read. It is the executed credit agreement, but it is illegible so you need to write and ask for a legible copy. I posted the relevant part of the CCA earlier for you.


here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ulation/2/made

Don't get caught up in the title being application, it is also headed with the relevant consumer credit agreement info, and with a legible copy you should see all the prescribed terms on there, you should also get legible copy of the rest of the terms. The reduction in thenimage size really jaunt reduced the legibility, it really is that bad, its probably been stored on microfiche as it is from 98.

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Andy thank you for clearing that up , I always forget the reasons.

Craig from what you have said all they hae sent you is an application form and not the agreement. There are no PT's in that document.
So far it seems that they have not complied with your S78 request however they can put that right with a recon. If they were to do that you would then need to make an affirmative statement to the court that you did not sign any agreement with the PT's on it. Now this can work and it can fail, it did so recently but the debtor was classed as an unreliable witness. At this point with SB being maybe a year away you really have nothing to lose. A short letter to capquest just telling them that they have not complied with your S78 request (maybe include an extract from S78 that is a trick that was told to me by PlanB). I am sorry if I have confused you with all the options , any could work but I am finding KISS works best (Keep it simple stupid)

so a recon = the correct agreement, if it is located? or does it mean maybe reconstruction?
what does PT mean by the way, sorry for asking so many questions, I'm new to this
So basically just need to send a reply saying in essence "you have failed to comply with the s78 as you have provided me with an application form, and not the requested agreement and other associated documents which you have failed to supply" and see how it goes?

on the blog a few posts back they have a template as follows, would this be applicable, or do any amendments need to be made :-

Account number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear sir/madam

Request for true copy of alleged Credit Agreement under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I wrote to you on xx/xx/xxxx requesting a true copy of any alleged credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on payment of the statutory fee of £1.00. This payment by way of postal order was included with my original request.

Your obligation to provide a true copy of a consumer credit agreement

Under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 77/78, a creditor has 12 working days to provide a true copy of the requested consumer credit agreement. Wasn't adhered to....


The documents that you have sent to me do not constitute a satisfactory response to my request. You have failed to supply me with a copy of an agreement or a copy of the original terms and conditions. Application form and 2 years of statements sent Please either comply with my original request or confirm to me in writing that no such agreement exists. Until this issue is resolved I consider this account to be in serious dispute.

Furthermore, you should remember that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a properly executed credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:
You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
You may not pass this account to any third party.
You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
You may not issue a default notice related to this account.
As things stand at the moment I do not and will not acknowledge this alleged debt. Furthermore, I dispute the legality of the debt until such a time as you can produce a satisfactory agreement.

You are reminded that if you ignore my request for a true copy of the alleged agreement and decide to pursue enforcement of this alleged debt through the court then you will need to produce the original agreement and not just a true copy. Without an agreement it is not possible to ascertain my obligations, if any, regarding payments into this account.

I look forward to your reply regarding the matters raised in this letter.

PLUS a request to remove numbers from their system as I will only deal via the letter medium

Yours faithfully.(Print Name Here – Never Sign)


P.S. How many days am i required to give them, to produce the correct info, is it a further 12 working days, or a different time period?

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Hi Amethyst
Yes I can just make out an interest rate on the second sheet and you may be right that there maybe the other PT's there. I would personally be concerned that apart from the fact it is totally illegible there seems to be no link to the two documents. Of course there maybe somewhere something on the first page that says overleaf but who knows.
In my opinion at this point there is little to lose in telling them that they have not complied with the S78 request . Maybe saying it is illegible is the way to go for now certainly worked for me on one occasion .
There is so much info missing that craig has no way of making an informed decision on his position.
At this stage I would be against giving too much info away

If a recon comes back then go over it with a fine tooth comb looking for any little thing that could suggest it is not a true copy

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

so a recon = the correct agreement, if it is located? or does it mean maybe reconstruction?
what does PT mean by the way, sorry for asking so many questions, I'm new to this PT=prescribed terms
So basically just need to send a reply saying in essence "you have failed to comply with the s78 as you have provided me with an application form, and not the requested agreement and other associated documents which you have failed to supply" and see how it goes?

on the blog a few posts back they have a template as follows, would this be applicable, or do any amendments need to be made :-

Account number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear sir/madam

Request for true copy of alleged Credit Agreement under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I wrote to you on xx/xx/xxxx requesting a true copy of any alleged credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on payment of the statutory fee of £1.00. This payment by way of postal order was included with my original request.

Your obligation to provide a true copy of a consumer credit agreement

Under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 77/78, a creditor has 12 working days to provide a true copy of the requested consumer credit agreement. Wasn't adhered to....


The documents that you have sent to me do not constitute a satisfactory response to my request. You have failed to supply me with a legible copy of an agreement or a legible copy of the original terms and conditions. Application form and 2 years of statements sent Please either comply with my original request or confirm to me in writing that no such agreement exists. Until this issue is resolved I consider this account to be in serious dispute.

Furthermore, you should remember that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a properly executed credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:
You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
You may not pass this account to any third party.
You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
You may not issue a default notice related to this account. DELETE THIS AS IT IS NO LONGER TRUE
As things stand at the moment I do not and will not acknowledge this alleged debt. Furthermore, I dispute the legality of the debt until such a time as you can produce a satisfactory agreement.

You are reminded that if you ignore my request for a true copy of the alleged agreement and decide to pursue enforcement of this alleged debt through the court then you will need to produce the original agreement and not just a true copy. Without an agreement it is not possible to ascertain my obligations, if any, regarding payments into this account.

I look forward to your reply regarding the matters raised in this letter.

PLUS a request to remove numbers from their system as I will only deal via the letter medium

Yours faithfully.(Print Name Here – Never Sign)


P.S. How many days am i required to give them, to produce the correct info, is it a further 12 working days, or a different time perio Doesn't really matter . They can not enforce on what they have sent

Made a couple of notes. I have a shed load of template letters if you want me to knock one together for you

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

There is definitely the interest rate on the CCA , its about then only bit I can read. It is the executed credit agreement, but it is illegible so you need to write and ask for a legible copy. I posted the relevant part of the CCA earlier for you.

here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ulation/2/made

Don't get caught up in the title being application, it is also headed with the relevant consumer credit agreement info, and with a legible copy you should see all the prescribed terms on there, you should also get legible copy of the rest of the terms. The reduction in thenimage size really jaunt reduced the legibility, it really is that bad, its probably been stored on microfiche as it is from 98.

Oh yes, i can see it under closer inspection, 19% (i think), it is appalling quality of the CoU, which are actually from '88.

I will reply by mail to CQ tomorrow, requesting a more legible copy as it is largely unreadable.

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Hi Amethyst
Yes I can just make out an interest rate on the second sheet and you may be right that there maybe the other PT's there. I would personally be concerned that apart from the fact it is totally illegible there seems to be no link to the two documents. Of course there maybe somewhere something on the first page that says overleaf but who knows.
In my opinion at this point there is little to lose in telling them that they have not complied with the S78 request . Maybe saying it is illegible is the way to go for now certainly worked for me on one occasion .
There is so much info missing that craig has no way of making an informed decision on his position.
At this stage I would be against giving too much info away

If a recon comes back then go over it with a fine tooth comb looking for any little thing that could suggest it is not a true copy

Hi Jon1965
So would you reckon it is sufficient to send them the template you amended, saying a lot of the information requested is illegible, or if you have the spare time, could you possibly knock a better one together for me if it is at all possible? (if would be most appreciated if you have the time ) .... is it worth adding a note to say you were required to supply this within 12 working days, which they clearly didn't?....


Their Enc's are listed as
1 - Copy of the C/Agreement
2 - T and C
3 - Statements ... as prev stated only 2 years

is that all they are required to supply, to a CCA request, or have they missed anything out?

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Hi Craig

Ok so what they should supply is
1) A true copy of the agreement ( that's either the actual agreement you signed or a copy of what you would have signed)
2) terms and conditions of account at inception
3) terms and conditions at date of default
4) A signed statement of account ( that is saying how much is owed and what state the account is in, terminated, defaulted etc)

So yes the letter you had is perfectly ok (as suggestd) . These DCA's are all well aware of template letters from the internet . I would suggest either sending that letter or writing your own basic letter which is what a friend of mine always does.
I coulds put one together if you want

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Hi Craig

Ok so what they should supply is
1) A true copy of the agreement ( that's either the actual agreement you signed or a copy of what you would have signed)
2) terms and conditions of account at inception
3) terms and conditions at date of default
4) A signed statement of account ( that is saying how much is owed and what state the account is in, terminated, defaulted etc)

So yes the letter you had is perfectly ok (as suggestd) . These DCA's are all well aware of template letters from the internet . I would suggest either sending that letter or writing your own basic letter which is what a friend of mine always does.
I could put one together if you want

if you wouldn't mind, could you construct a letter for me in that vein maybe it would be preferable to that 'template from the blogsite, including asking them to only deal via letter and removal of numbers esp. landline of parents would they have to send confirmation that this is done?

So really, currently they haven't provided (2) as it is illegible and (3) as I only have statements, (4) the covering letter states "a/c remains in default and full balance is payable/ o/b = xxxxxxxx / total paid to CQ = 0.00 / a/c not currently on agreed arrangement / contact # to discuss how you wish to settle" and signed. which I assume is sufficient to qualify (4)'s criteria?
Obviously they don't need telling what is missing from the CCA request in the letter as its up to them to provide what is necessary to fulfil the request, which they should know in the business they're in, I guess

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Craig
I have put this together for you , have a read. I have put in red the bits you need to edit (nothing makes a person look sillier than sending a letter with something like [ ENTER DCA NAME HERE] ). The last part about communication you may want to put onto another letter as they may not read that far.
I am having trouble uploading the letter so I will have to copy n paste it for you

Dear Sirs
Ref: xxxxxxxx
I do not acknowledge any debt to your company or anyone you may represent
On XX/XX/XXXX I wrote requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for the above numbered account. In response to this request I was supplied a document, a copy of which is attached, that did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974),
For your convenience here is an extract from the CCA.
Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.
(1)The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [F1£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—
(a)the state of the account, and
(b)the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and
(c)the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

In addition the document you sent me is completely illegible and as you are no doubt aware, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI/1557) states:
2 - Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms
(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the [background medium upon which the information is displayed].
What you sent does not comply with current CCA legislation because without such agreement, I am unable to adjudge my position effectively. For this to occur I would require a "true legible copy" of the actual agreement that apparently exists and I therefore appeal to you to fulfil my request. I am willing to pay any reasonable charge that you feel is necessary, in order to provide a copy of the “actual” credit agreement.
I would also like to refer you to the OFT guidance on S77-79, I presume you're aware that the OFT has stipulated the following;
Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements. Under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

• a copy of their agreement
• copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
• a statement of account

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable by virtue of S78(4) This means a creditor cannot:

• make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
• get a court judgment against the debtor

Please also note that I will only communicate with you in writing. . I again refer you to the updated OFT guidelines on debt collection 3.3(k). Please remove the contact telephone numbers you have for me from your database as they do not belong to me and your repeated calling on them is causing great distress and harassment to the owners
Yours faithfully,


Sign Digitally

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Craig
I have put this together for you , have a read. I have put in red the bits you need to edit (nothing makes a person look sillier than sending a letter with something like [ ENTER DCA NAME HERE] ). The last part about communication you may want to put onto another letter as they may not read that far.
I am having trouble uploading the letter so I will have to copy n paste it for you

Many thanks for your time, jon1965, I have amended it so the contact paragraph is at the top, it may probably still be in their blind spot anyway, once they see excerpts from the CC Act(1974), but we'll see how it goes, I will add that I require confirmation this is done, to the letter. (If necessary a second 'reminder' can be sent )
Regarding the sentence "Please remove the contact telephone numbers you have for me from your database as they do not belong to me..", the mobile number belongs to me, but the landline they managed to make initial contact on, is located at my parents, which obviously DOESN'T belong to me, i guess i can still request them not to contact my mobile either, as i have already stipulated that I only wish to be contacted in writing?
If I do not have the current date of sending the original CCA request 'at this time'(I'm in the process of searching), I do remember it was within a 2-3 day or so timeframe of the request template near the beginning of this thread(in the middle of December), how shall I word it?

"If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable by virtue of S78(4) This means a creditor cannot: .... "
surely they have already failed to comply with this part of the letter, due to taking nearer 12 weeks than 12 days... i guess i have to give them a further 12 to comply properly?

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Hi Craig
No problems, the bit about 12 working days etc is just reminding them that they have not complied and therefore can not enforce. It is just reminding them which bit of law you are using i.e S78(4).
NOTE PLEASE CHANGE THAT TO S78(6)

If you don't have the exact date you sent the CCA request you could just say something like "In Dec 2013"

As for the phone numbers bit by all mean change it but I wouldn't bother. Even though the mobile number is in your name who is to say that someone else isn't using it?

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Hi Craig
No problems, the bit about 12 working days etc is just reminding them that they have not complied and therefore can not enforce. It is just reminding them which bit of law you are using i.e S78(4).
NOTE PLEASE CHANGE THAT TO S78(6)

If you don't have the exact date you sent the CCA request you could just say something like "In Dec 2013"

As for the phone numbers bit by all mean change it but I wouldn't bother. Even though the mobile number is in your name who is to say that someone else isn't using it?

Ok so all occurences of S78(4) i need to change to S78(6)? I mean replace the (4) and subsequent bullet points to S78 (6) and bullet point (a)? (6)If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)— (a)he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement
I think I'll leave the phone numbers bit anyway as I don't wish to be contacted by telephone (I won't have it in black and white what they say, if you get what I mean)