DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Well, to be honest, I'm quite amazed they managed to dig this up, and it does look like it will be compliant (prescribed terms wise) so all they need to do to enforce really is type out the terms so they are legible.

Sooooo, when did you last make acknowledgment or payment on the debt ? (to the original creditor or a DCA)

I think the ex last acknowledged/made payment some time in 2009, as I authorised her to deal with it, due to her working in the industry at the time.

[Amethyst]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Pity. Probably not statute barred then. Do those payments show up on ''they sent me a printout of the last six years of the account statements,''?

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

To me it seems silly to roll over on the basis of what you sent.
A few points to remember are that for a CCA request they need to provide T&C's at inception AND default , a statement of account, i.e a signed statement saying how much is owed and a true copy of what you would have signed.
I would be sending them a letter saying that what they have provided is illegible and does not fulfil their obligations under S78

When and if they come back with anything you could then throw a spoke in the works by asking them if they hold the original copy , templates available .

I do not suppose you still have the default notice do you, I know it goes back a long way but I seem to remember that TSB were unable to produce a compliant DN . 1

When was it sold by TSB? A SAR to TSB might be of use as well. 2

With respect to Amethyst never ever sign a cca request , yes if they fudged it it would be fraud but very hard to prove . It is not paranoia just sensible precaution, the only other person I know who says sign is a senile military man 3

1 They supplied a quite a few pages statements, with the latter ones saying basically 'you have failed to make minimum payments/seriously overdue/now in the hands of the banks dca', I don't seem to be able to find anything else, as I have moved twice since separating.

2 Im not quite sure, from what i can gather probably 2009, when the ex last dealt, as she disputed it as they couldn't supply a CCA at the time so she stopped the payments. What is a SAR and how do i apply, and what should it consist of?

3 I'll have to remember that, type the letter and leave any signatures, in future.

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Pity. Probably not statute barred then. Do those payments show up on ''they sent me a printout of the last six years of the account statements,''?

They only seem to have provided 2007 to 2009 from what I can see, so surely it should be 2003-2009? is that right, or does it mean 6 years back from the CQ CCA request, which was back in Dec 2013

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

A SAR is a request under the data protection act and is usually sent to the original creditor. You should list anything you specifically want such as the Notice of assignment , but it should have everything they hae on you, details of letters , details of phone conversations . It should include the details of the DN, date sent and remedy date etc.

Here is a typical SAR request

Bank Name
Address 1
Address 2
City
Postcode Your Name
Address 1
Address 2
City
Postcode




Date Here
Dear Sirs
Ref: xxxxxxxx
Subject Access Request - S.7 Data Protection Act 1998
Please supply me with a copy of all information your company hold on me including a list of accounts and details of payments along with copies of statements.
Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts, I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which relates to me and am entitled to under section 7(1) of the Act. If you store any of the older records on microfiche, please be aware that the Information Commissioner deems this to be a relevant filing system under the Act. As such, any microfiche data must be sent to me in fully legible and comprehensible form.
Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you.
If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response. I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me or collected monies to which you were not entitled, then I shall be reclaiming them and also the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.
Yours faithfully,
Sign Digitally

and here is a more detailed one

Dear Sirs
Ref: xxxxxxxx
Subject Access Request - S.7 Data Protection Act 1998
Please supply me with a copy of all information your company hold on me including a list of accounts and details of payments along with copies of statements.
Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts, I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which relates to me and am entitled to under section 7(1) of the Act. If you store any of the older records on microfiche, please be aware that the Information Commissioner deems this to be a relevant filing system under the Act. As such, any microfiche data must be sent to me in fully legible and comprehensible form.
Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.
For the avoidance of any and all doubt, I reiterate:
I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which, in any way appertains to me, including (but not exhaustively) a copy of the original signed executed agreement; statements of account; duplicate statements and/or print outs of all account transactions; all internal and external correspondence sent or received by you including memo’s, logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts; notes of manual interventions such as telephone attendants' notes, copies of stored telephone conversations, internal and external emails; any other information held on all types of media in any relevant filing system (microfiche included). If you have disclosed any information to a third party (with or without my express permission), will you please include details of this in your reply, along with notes of any legal action passed or pending (to include a true copy of default notices, court orders and the like).
Where any information that you provide includes any charges, for example returned payments, late payment fees, and so forth, would you please advise your breakdown of actual costs (liquidated damages) incurred for each charge, and the Term or Condition on which you rely upon to claim such a charge. I also require that you forward, within the above mentioned time scale, a true copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions.
I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10.00 to access ALL data held by you about myself. You should be fully aware of your statutory obligations under the Data Protection Act and that any failure to comply with this request will involve a complaint to the ICO as well as potential legal action.
You have 40 days in which to comply with this request and note that this request has been sent Recorded Delivery so I can ensure compliance on these issues comply within the legislative time frames.
Yours faithfully,
Sign Digitally

Although they both say sign digitally you may have to sign them but in that case I would use an anti tamper strip .

Quite easy to find for free on the internet to copy and paste onto your letter then sign over or you can just put something in such as

antitamperantitamperanrtitampe
antitamperantitamperanrtitampe
antitamperantitamperanrtitampe


Hope that helps

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

A SAR is a request under the data protection act and is usually sent to the original creditor. You should list anything you specifically want such as the Notice of assignment , but it should have everything they hae on you, details of letters , details of phone conversations . It should include the details of the DN, date sent and remedy date etc.

Here is a typical SAR request


and here is a more detailed one


Although they both say sign digitally you may have to sign them but in that case I would use an anti tamper strip .

Quite easy to find for free on the internet to copy and paste onto your letter then sign over or you can just put something in such as

antitamperantitamperanrtitampe
antitamperantitamperanrtitampe
antitamperantitamperanrtitampe


Hope that helps

So i need to send this off, and in the meantime, I need to send to CQ that I wish only to deal via the letter medium (would I also be able to ask them to refrain from calling, for example, a parent's land-line?) and that I have sent a SAR to TSB, and basically wait until I recieve said information. I have not used a cheque book since probably around 2009 (or earlier) , i assume they would accept a P/O, for this fee?

I appreciate everyones advice on here, as stuff like this can be quite stressful, especially only being on JSA and potentially having such a big amount to pay off.

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Yes postal order and a simple letter to capquest along these lines

Dear Sirs
Account No: XXXXXXXX
On XX/XX/XXXX I wrote requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for the above account. In response to this request I was supplied an illegible document, a copy of which is attached. What you sent does not comply with current CCA legislation because without such agreement, I am unable to adjudge my position effectively. I would require a "true legible copy" of the actual agreement .
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in s.61(1) of the CCA(1974) and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account. The documents I received appear to be an illegible photocopy of the Terms & Agreement. The prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974, are not at all visible and therefore the documents provided do not constitute a ‘true copy’. As you are no doubt aware, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI/1557) states:
2 - Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms
(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the [background medium upon which the information is displayed].

In addition I can and will only communicate in writing . Please remove the telephone numbers that you have on file for me as they do not belong to me. All calls are logged by date and time and I will hae no hesitation in taking further action if ANY more calls are received

I have missed out all the technical stuff from that as there should be no need for it i.e court cases OFT guidance.

Another option could be

Dear Sir
Ref
On xxxxxx I sent you a S78 request for the aboe account. The documents that you sent me do not fulfil the requirements of the CCA1974 partly but not exclusively because they are illegible. I refer you to the OFT guidance on S77-79 (OFT1272) and also to Carey v HSBC Bank Plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB) (23 December 2009).

In addition I can and will only communicate in writing . Please remove the telephone numbers that you have on file for me as they do not belong to me. All calls are logged by date and time and I will hae no hesitation in taking further action if ANY more calls are received

If you send the 2nd SAR letter you will get a lot of info for all/any accounts you have or had from LTSB

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Yes postal order and a simple letter to capquest along these lines

I have missed out all the technical stuff from that as there should be no need for it i.e court cases OFT guidance.

Another option could be



If you send the 2nd SAR letter you will get a lot of info for all/any accounts you have or had from LTSB

Most of the handwritten stuff is fairly readable/legible just the reference numbers top right (printed), Amethyst, what do you think, could i class it as being illegible?

They have so far only spoken via parent's landline, I think I may have had missed calls late last year on my mobile from them, but as I didn't know they had purchased my account from the last one I didn't give it any thought, I can't ask them to remove my mobile can I? I should be able to with the land line as it doesn't belong to me , or should I say I do not wish to be contacted via any spoken medium, and will ONLY deal via letter?

In regards to the section in the 2nd paragraph "and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in s.61(1)" their signature, if present, is unreadable, so does that make a difference to things?

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Yes postal order and a simple letter to capquest along these lines

I assume you mean i should send the £10 p/o to LTSB not CQ for the SAR

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Sorry yes, £10 to LTSB and the letter to Capquest

You can indeed ask them to only communicate in writing and not by phone.

The reason I have said to say it is illegible is from what I saw in a previous post. The application form was just that. Are there other documents that I haven't seen

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Sorry yes, £10 to LTSB and the letter to Capquest

You can indeed ask them to only communicate in writing and not by phone.

The reason I have said to say it is illegible is from what I saw in a previous post. The application form was just that. Are there other documents that I haven't seen

The only other thing they have sent is 2007-2009 statement copies from LTSB but the only signature is of my name nobody at LTSB's signature is either visible or present. the other hand written stuff is readable, but any "App No." and whatever the other reference number is unreadable, including the hand written reference by them in the top left is also unreadable.

Is the debt still enforcable if BOTH parties signatures are not visible/present, judging by the "The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in s.61(1) of the CCA(1974) and subsequent Statutory Instruments." sentence?

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

I am afraid there is no need for their signature.

[craigyorks1969]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

I am afraid there is no need for their signature.

Oh I see, I just thought, when i read this page http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/61
and the bit about :-

"(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a)a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and"

and therefore the agreement CQ have sent me has been incorrectly executed and possibly not enforcable?

I spotted this (here :- http://thecca.blogspot.co.uk/ ) "The only thing is they have sent a copy of an application form which was completed by me when I applied for the card. Now an application form just isn’t the same as a properly executed agreement as far as the Consumer Credit Act is concerned. Without an agreement signed by both the debtor and the creditor that includes all of the prescribed terms the debt is unenforceable even via a court." , which is what has been sent by CQ just the application form and not any 'agreement' ... I'm not sure how true this is?

[jon1965]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

Craig
This is my understanding of the situation
When a signature is talked about this can be in the form of a company stamp, an initial or something similar so in this case it the form does hae what is classed as a signature on it.

So now we come to the application form
What exactly is on that form, not with it but on it
Is there an interest rate, procedures for repayment, either a credit limit or the way the credit limit will be determined? To be honest I can not see them at all. If they are not there is there any reference to where they will be and is that included.

When you look at the terms and conditions what if any are the penalty fees for missed payment etc and again what if any are on the terms from default.

I sent a CCA request of to BOS for a credit card and all I got back was an application form and a letter saying they could not supply a recon so wouldn't enforce .

If the application form is indeed that you can send a letter telling them that i.e its only an application form
there are lots of options to choose from here that should hopefully keep them going round in circles for a while. My only advice would be not to get involved in letter tennis.

Another thing to remember is that the law changes with different cases so for example in that blog it says they can not default a UE debt , well actually they can, that has been decided by a court. With a UE debt they can ask, pester, even issue a claim but if defended they will not get one.

Why not PM Andy58 or Mystery 1 as they are both good at this stuff

[MIKE770]

Re: DCA query, no true copy of signed agreement...

a lot of judges are ignoring the fact of unsigned by both and issuing CCJs, on the esence of statements etc