Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Funny, been dealing with bailiffs for a long time, to me it will always be levying distress and bailiffs.

If you employ someone to collect money on your behalf, then really there would be no point in legislation which prevents that money being paid directly to you, it would defeat the object.

As for the fees, if you actually read the regulations, you will see that the fees form part and parcel of the "amount outstanding" they are the same debt from the moment they become due, so it is not a matter of apportionment, if some of the total is due then the bailiff will seek to collect it. It really is a very simple process.
Incidentally I am reliably informed that despite being bombarded with ridiculous template letters ,the new system is on the whole working very well for all concerned.
I must admit that this comes as something of a surprise to me, but people generally are interacting with the bailiffs and the creditors at an earlier stage and preventing added costs, due to the new regulations and the more transparent fee system, i just wish that people like you would not continue to complicate matters with these ridiculous ideas that really do no good to anyone.

To repeat, no-one is disputing that the fees are due - the bailiff is entitled to make his charges. However, there is no legislative process in place that allows the LA to pass on these fees from any payments they receive directly from the debtor. The LA can only collect what it is owed.

The fees will then remain outstanding, and the bailiff needs to pursue the debtor for these fees. However, as the liability order was for a set sum (you can't issue a liability order for an unknown sum), the LO cannot be used to enforce for fees only. If the LO included the fees, they would still be due even if the debt was returned to the council.

As they are not (the fees 'die' if it is returned) it is clear the fees are not part of the sum quoted on the LO.

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Correct Andy58. I would just point to post 55 for anyone who is having difficulties understanding things as they are. At the end of the day, if people feel they have been hard done by, or are being hard done by, they have the right to complain.

You reiterate also a point which has been made several times already - things are working far better and things are more transparent than previously. That is a big step forward.

I've heard this quote of 'things are working better' a few times. Who says they are working better? From what I see, bailiffs are causing as many problems with illegal threats as before. The new tactic seems to be to say that the compliance letter has been sent yet the debtor has never received one, thus allowing the bailiff to make a visit.

That's not to mention the post dated letters.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

i will try one last time.

The fees come under the regulations as "costs" and are included within the "amount outstanding" this sum is paid for out of proceeds.
The fees are part of the total sum due, once the enforcement stage is reached the fees become part of the total, if you pay a sum to the authority they will just see it as a payment off this total amount, they will not recognize it as fees or anything else they will just see that a balance is due on the account and advise the bailiff to collect the shortfall. Now I am sure that everyone else understands this , so I will to be repeating it again just because you seem unable to.
In any event the authorities and the bailiffs understand it this way, and at the end of the day this is the only thing that has any practical significance.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

I've heard this quote of 'things are working better' a few times. Who says they are working better? From what I see, bailiffs are causing as many problems with illegal threats as before. The new tactic seems to be to say that the compliance letter has been sent yet the debtor has never received one, thus allowing the bailiff to make a visit.

That's not to mention the post dated letters.

Bailiff industry , authorities, house of lords select committee, CAB, most people seem to agree the system seems to be working, but it is early days of course.

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

i will try one last time.

The fees come under the regulations as "costs" and are included within the "amount outstanding" this sum is paid for out of proceeds.
The fees are part of the total sum due, once the enforcement stage is reached the fees become part of the total, if you pay a sum to the authority they will just see it as a payment off this total amount, they will not recognize it as fees or anything else they will just see that a balance is due on the account and advise the bailiff to collect the shortfall. Now I am sure that everyone else understands this , so I will to be repeating it again just because you seem unable to.
In any event the authorities and the bailiffs understand it this way, and at the end of the day this is the only thing that has any practical significance.

The account balance will show the original debt plus the council fees only, not the bailiff fees. This will be the amount stated on the liability order (and there needs to be a figure) and once paid, the account balance will say 'zero'. Why would the LA now be concerned about anything else owed to a third party?

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Bailiff industry , authorities, house of lords select committee, CAB, most people seem to agree the system seems to be working, but it is early days of course.

I'd love to see where they are saying this.

[Wombats]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

And I'll happily repeat again, for a 'real life' example of this, see post 28.

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Post #28:

Yes, so if there's a CT debt of £75 which is then passed to the enforcement company (triggering the Compliance Stage immediately, and thus a further £75 fee) the debt is now £150.00.

If the debtor pays £75 directly to the council and the council accepts it against the debt (of £150), then £75 is still owing. Thus the amount collected (or accepted by the council against the total debt) doesn't reach the level of the debt. There is still £75 outstanding.

As I said, all the discussion in the world won't bring agreement on this, so it's best to disagree rather than go through the whole thing yet again.

Not sure what that brings... the LA records would show an amount of £75 owed, never £150. They would not add the bailiff fees to their records.

[Wombats]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

The account balance will show the original debt plus the council fees only, not the bailiff fees. This will be the amount stated on the liability order (and there needs to be a figure) and once paid, the account balance will say 'zero'. Why would the LA now be concerned about anything else owed to a third party?

Again, as has been mentioned before, this is purely systems. The figure zero means nothing. It was not long ago computer banking showed only the balance of my bank account and not the available balance as well. I could easily have accepted the balance as £10, gone and spent that, only to find it made me overdrawn as some funds had not cleared.

Think of the council balance saying zero as the balance with uncleared funds. Their system and the bailiffs' systems are not linked, so it takes a while for the 'true balance' to show. The 'true balance' will include the bailiff fees.

Frontline council staff can easily be duped, or just make the mistake of looking at that zero balance and saying there is nothing further to pay. There is - there is the bailiff fees which are not showing on the balance of account on their system. They are, however, owing and collectable.

[Kati]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

To collect council tax and business rates the councils:

1. Send out a bill
2. Send a reminder letter if payment isn't received in accordance with instalments
3. Send a second reminder (if account brought up to date following first reminder and customers misses a payment again). A second reminder isn't given for business rates
4. Summons issued (if account isn't brought up-to-date following first/second reminder or final notice)
5. Liability Order obtained by the council from Magistrates Court
6. Letter sent out giving 14 days for debtor to make contact to arrange payment or case will be passed to the enforcement agent
7. If the debt isn't paid within 14 days on day 15 they will be charged the £75 compliance fee for the enforcement agent.

Each council has a council tax debt assistant that has been employed mainly to assist debtors who may be paying council tax for the first time. This is to prevent people getting to the summons and liability order stage, by organising a flexible payment plan for example, weekly or 12 monthly. This is to stop them falling into arrears and paying extra costs.

If the debt remains unpaid, and no arrangements have been made, the EA will write to the debtor informing them of a visit. This visit will incur a further £235 (+7.5% for debts over £1500).

The third charge, of £110 (+7.5% for debts over £1500) is only added if the EA removes goods.

While I will not get into an argument over whether or not a bailiff can chase for his 'fees' if a debt is paid directly to the council after they have been hired to enforce, I believe that the way in which a council deals with CT debt (steps 1-7) show that the £75 compliance fee is due (if the debtor has not engaged with the council prior to step 7 commencing).

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Again, as has been mentioned before, this is purely systems. The figure zero means nothing. It was not long ago computer banking showed only the balance of my bank account and not the available balance as well. I could easily have accepted the balance as £10, gone and spent that, only to find it made me overdrawn as some funds had not cleared.

Think of the council balance saying zero as the balance with uncleared funds. Their system and the bailiffs' systems are not linked, so it takes a while for the 'true balance' to show. The 'true balance' will include the bailiff fees.

Frontline council staff can easily be duped, or just make the mistake of looking at that zero balance and saying there is nothing further to pay. There is - there is the bailiff fees which are not (yet) showing on the balance of account.

That does not, and will not happen, wombats. The LA are only concerned with what you owe them. Your account balance will never include the bailiff fees - you won't look at your account one day and see an outstanding balance of £200, then once enforcement starts see that outstanding balance change to £275. You don't owe a further £75 to the council. Surely you understand that?

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

While I will not get into an argument over whether or not a bailiff can chase for his 'fees' if a debt is paid directly to the council after they have been hired to enforce, I believe that the way in which a council deals with CT debt (steps 1-7) show that the £75 compliance fee is due (if the debtor has not engaged with the council prior to step 7 commencing).

You are implying that the council have needed to pay £75 to the bailiff to begin enforcement action. That is not the case. The council themselves incur no further charges once enforcement has started. The amount owed to the council will be the original debt plus any costs the council has incurred in obtaining the liability order.

[Wombats]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

I don't think Doubleslap would argue differently Kati, to be fair to him/her.
The issue is exactly the one you don't wish to get involved in - I don't blame you! It is the issue of paying a debt straight to the council or a court fine using the 'ATM' machine at the court and getting a receipt.

[Wombats]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

That does not, and will not happen, wombats. The LA are only concerned with what you owe them. Your account balance will never include the bailiff fees - you won't look at your account one day and see an outstanding balance of £200, then once enforcement starts see that outstanding balance change to £275. You don't owe a further £75 to the council. Surely you understand that?

Too fast off the mark there. If you noticed I spotted that error and edited it out.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

The thing is that this is not a theory, there are cases document OTR where people have paid the authority, and the bailiff have just continued to enforce for the fees, and the debtor has incurred further costs, so I really do not understand what the argument is about, this is what happens in the real world, whether or not someone understands the legislation involved is largely irrelevant.