Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

[Guest]

Unfortunately the answer to the above is, yes. If you want enforcement action to cease (the bailiffs to leave you alone) this fee must be paid, as far as the debtor is concerned it is part of the debt owed.
To be clear, certain web forums recommend making payment to the authority rather than the bailiff, saying that this will negate the fee, this is false.
If the debtor pays anything less than the total sum specified on the notice, the balance will be due. If this is not settled the bailiff will proceed to the next level of enforcement and a further £235 will then be added to the bill.
There follows a technical explanation of the law behind this. Numerous cases have been recorded of debtors trying to avoid these fees already (many with disastrous results) and in every case, the above has been proven. This is the way the enforcement agencies and the authority operate, so arguments over legislative interpretation are irrelevant

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

I think the best way to address this is to look at the “arguments” raised which purport to indicate that the fee can be avoided.

“The compliance fee is not part of the enforcement under the act and therefore not due to the bailiff if he does not collect the sum due under the order/warrant”.

The requirement to send a letter before the bailiff calls is given in the TCE 2007 Schedule 12 section 7 Which reads:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/15/schedule/12
7
(1)An enforcement agent may not take control of goods unless the debtor has been given notice.
.(2)Regulations must state—
.(a)the minimum period of notice;
.(b)the form of the notice;
.(c)what it must contain;
.(d)how it must be given;
.(e)who must give it.
.(3)The enforcement agent must keep a record of the time when the notice is given.
.(4)If regulations authorise it, the court may order in prescribed circumstances that the notice given may be less than the minimum period.
.(5)The order may be subject to conditions

This authorises the creation of regulations (2) which stipulate the particulars of the form content and service of these notices , the regulations were implemented on the 6^th of April 2014 and are here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...lation/17/made

Going Back to the original argument (“The compliance fee is not part of the enforcement under the act and therefore not due to the bailiff if he does not collect the sum due under the order/warrant”.)
This is addressed in Section 6, 7 and 8 of these regulations; the relevant section here is subsection (2) of section 8 where it reads;
(2) Notice must be given by the enforcement agent or the enforcement agent’s office.
So for clarity, the notice is the responsibility of the EA not the authority.
For the particulars regarding the fees we must look at regulations made under section 62 0f the TCE
Costs
62(1)Regulations may make provision for the recovery by any person from the debtor of amounts in respect of costs of enforcement-related services.
These regulations also were implemented this year and are here;
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/contents/made

The provisions regarding the various enforcement stages and the description is contained in part 5 and 6, we will look at part 5 as it applies to council tax, but part six is similar in this respect and applies to high court enforcement, he section reads.
Stages of enforcement for which fees may be recovered – enforcement other than under High Court writs
5. (1) The relevant stages of enforcement under an enforcement power which is not conferred by a High Court writ are as follows—
(a)the compliance stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the receipt by the enforcement agent of instructions to use that procedure in relation to a sum to be recovered up to but not including the commencement of the enforcement stage
Agian for clarity we see that the compliance stage is in fact part of the enforcement process as defined by the regulations.

The next argument is that the fee does not form part of the “proceeds” as defined by the act and therefore is not due once the sum under the order/ warrant is paid.
The relevant section reads:

Recovery of fees for enforcement-related services from the debtor
4. (1) — The enforcement agent may recover from the debtor the fees indicated in the Schedule in accordance with this regulation and regulations 11, 12, 13, 16 and 17, by reference to the stage, or stages, of enforcement for which enforcement-related services have been supplied.
(2) The fees referred to in paragraph (1) may be recovered out of proceeds

The term “procceds” is defined within section 2 the same regulations and reads: “proceeds” has the meaning given by paragraph 50(2) of Schedule 12
Section 50 reads:
50(1) Proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power must be used to pay the amount outstanding.
.(2)Proceeds are any of these—
.(a)proceeds of sale or disposal of controlled goods;
.(b)money taken in exercise of the power, if paragraph 37(1) does not apply to it.
.(3)The amount outstanding is the sum of these—
.(a)the amount of the debt which remains unpaid (or an amount that the creditor agrees to accept in full satisfaction of the debt);
.(b)any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs).
.(4)If the proceeds are less than the amount outstanding, which amounts in sub-paragraph (3)(a) and (b) must be paid, and how much of any amount, is to be determined in accordance with regulations.
.(5)If the proceeds are more than the amount outstanding, the surplus must be paid to the debtor.
6)If there is a co-owner of any of the goods, the enforcement agent must—
.(a)first pay the co-owner a share of the proceeds of those goods proportionate to his interest;
.(b)then deal with the rest of the proceeds under sub-paragraphs (1) to (5).
.(7)Regulations may make provision for resolving disputes about what share is due under sub-paragraph (6)(a).

.The important parts of tis are contained in subsection 2(b) money taken in exercise of the power, if paragraph
The definition of enforcement power is given in section 1(2) schedule 12 of the TCE 2007 as:
(2)In this Schedule a power to use the procedure to recover a particular sum is called an “enforcement power”. (the enforcement stages has been defined earlier).

In addition section 50(1) above states: 50(1) Proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power must be used to pay the amount outstanding
The amount outstanding is defined in the same paragraph as:

(3)The amount outstanding is the sum of these—
.(a)the amount of the debt which remains unpaid (or an amount that the creditor agrees to accept in full satisfaction of the debt);
.(b)any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs).

Section 62 reads:
62(1)Regulations may make provision for the recovery by any person from the debtor of amounts in respect of costs of enforcement-related services.
.(2)The regulations may provide for recovery to be out of proceeds or otherwise.
.(3)The amount recoverable under the regulations in any case is to be determined by or under the regulations.
.(4)The regulations may in particular provide for the amount, if disputed, to be assessed in accordance with rules of court.
.(5)“Enforcement-related services” means anything done under or in connection with an enforcement power, or in connection with obtaining an enforcement power, or any services used for the purposes of a provision of this Schedule or regulations under it.
We see here that the amount outstanding includes anything “in connection with” the use of the power. Since as also said the “amount outstanding” is paid out of the “proceeds”, if the sum paid by the debtor is short the fee for the use of that particular power (stage of enforcement) then that sum will still be owed.

[Kati]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Am I correct in thinking that

1, if the creditor is paid in full by the debtor (instead of the bailiff) they will pass on the £75 compliance fee before taking money off for the debt??
2, if the bailiff is paid the amount owed (to the creditor) they can take their £75 compliance fee out of the money before passing the rest on to the creditor??

meaning that they get their fee either way, and the debtor will still owe £75??

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Am I correct in thinking that

1, if the creditor is paid in full by the debtor (instead of the bailiff) they will pass on the £75 compliance fee before taking money off for the debt??
2, if the bailiff is paid the amount owed (to the creditor) they can take their £75 compliance fee out of the money before passing the rest on to the creditor??

meaning that they get their fee either way, and the debtor will still owe £75??

Yes this is my understanding, however as far as the debtor is concerned it is largely irrelevant, as however the financial accommodation between the authority and the EA is organised, the remaining debt will still be reclaimable under the bailiffs powers.

[wales01man]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

If a Bailiff is brought into get the debt paid and after the debtor receives the letter from the Bailiff the money is paid stands to reason the £75 fee is payable after all the Bailiffs have done the work and the money is paid?
If the Bailiffs fees are avoidable why should they be involved or are they expected to work for nothing!
I do not support Bailiffs I think Councils should chase the debt in house as for the size of the Fees seems high but that's how they are

[Kati]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

I agree (although I'm loath to admit EAs are owed anything) - If a bailiff firm is employed to enforce a debt, they have a right to be paid their fee ... and if the debt is paid early enough, the debtor is not charged the extra £235 for a bailiff visit

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

No-one has ever questioned whether a bailiff can charge his fee; the question is how it's paid. I've yet to see any legislation that says if you pay the creditor direct (ie the council), they must pass on the £75 compliance fee to the bailiff. I have seen this debated on another forum until they, typically, closed the thread as it annoys their paymasters. Hopefully a reasoned, informed debate can continue here.

Unless I'm mistaken, the bailiff is not an employee of the council, so why would they be paying him? Are you saying that the Government has created a system that guarantees a revenue stream for the bailiffs?

So that's my first challenge - show where the legislation states that a council MUST pass on the £75 compliance stage fee.


This would all be a lot easier if this Government accepted that bailiffs belong in the middle ages, and that there are better, easier ways of collecting debts without the crippling fees. That is why so many are hardened against the bailiff - the grotesque fees charged for the little work done. £235 for knocking on your door - come on.

[wales01man]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

Think we all agree with you on the need for Bailiffs but they are there

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

No-one has ever questioned whether a bailiff can charge his fee; the question is how it's paid. I've yet to see any legislation that says if you pay the creditor direct (ie the council), they must pass on the £75 compliance fee to the bailiff. I have seen this debated on another forum until they, typically, closed the thread as it annoys their paymasters. Hopefully a reasoned, informed debate can continue here.

Unless I'm mistaken, the bailiff is not an employee of the council, so why would they be paying him? Are you saying that the Government has created a system that guarantees a revenue stream for the bailiffs?

So that's my first challenge - show where the legislation states that a council MUST pass on the £75 compliance stage fee.


This would all be a lot easier if this Government accepted that bailiffs belong in the middle ages, and that there are better, easier ways of collecting debts without the crippling fees. That is why so many are hardened against the bailiff - the grotesque fees charged for the little work done. £235 for knocking on your door - come on.

The legislation is in post 2 on here. The matter has been raised several times in an attempt to prevent people form coming unstuck, unfortunately the thread you refer to mentions such cases, all documented. The thread was closed because of the input of those who do not understand or wish to understand the situation for various reasons best known to themselves.
It really is pointless arguing because this is the way it works, you pay the council, the bailiffs call and collect their fee and add £235 to your bill

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

The legislation is in post 2 on here.

That copy and paste job does little to help anyone. Please can you show exactly where it says that if you pay the council direct, they are legally obliged, or they must, pass on the £75 compliance stage fee to the bailiff.

I don't mean explanations that the councils do, or they have being doing; only where it says they MUST do so. Also no quotes about a bailiff being entitled to charge (as we know they can, just as any other tradesman is entitled to charge for their services), just the part where the legislation says that the £75 must legally be passed on by the council.

If you can't show that in your next answer, I'll assume you can never show it.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

That copy and paste job does little to help anyone. Please can you show exactly where it says that if you pay the council direct, they are legally obliged, or they must, pass on the £75 compliance stage fee to the bailiff.

I don't mean explanations that the councils do, or they have being doing; only where it says they MUST do so. Also no quotes about a bailiff being entitled to charge (as we know they can, just as any other tradesman is entitled to charge for their services), just the part where the legislation says that the £75 must legally be passed on by the council.

If you can't show that in your next answer, I'll assume you can never show it.

The legislation is copy and pasted of course, the alternative would be for me to make it up, I will leave that to you FMOL boys, the rest is just interpretation of the facts provided by me.

There is no need for any regulation which says any fee must be passed to anyone, if it makes you fell better to think that a council worker trots hot foot around to the bailiffs office with £75 then fine, but it makes no difference. The total sum is due to be paid, whoever it is paid to makes no odds, if there is a shortfall the bailiff can collect. That is what all that cut and paste legislation says.

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

So that's confirmation that there is no legislation that says the council are legally obliged to pass on the £75 compliance fee if you pay them direct. It therefore follows that they are not legally obliged to pass on any fees to the bailiff should the debtor pay them direct.

Many thanks.

[doubleslap2]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

The legislation is copy and pasted of course, the alternative would be for me to make it up, I will leave that to you FMOL boys, the rest is just interpretation of the facts provided by me.

There is no need for any regulation which says any fee must be passed to anyone, if it makes you fell better to think that a council worker trots hot foot around to the bailiffs office with £75 then fine, but it makes no difference. The total sum is due to be paid, whoever it is paid to makes no odds, if there is a shortfall the bailiff can collect. That is what all that cut and paste legislation says.

So that's confirmation that there is no legislation that says the council are legally obliged to pass on the £75 compliance fee if you pay them direct. It therefore follows that they are not legally obliged to pass on any fees to the bailiff should the debtor pay them direct.

Many thanks.

[wales01man]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

So we are saying if you pay the council direct no £75 fee is payable?
Sir vere who comes on LB needs to clarify this he or she seems to know the answer or we could tell the Bailiffs they are working for nothing if after a letter from them the debt is paid without their fees deducted or do the council pay £75 from public money to them?

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff £75 Compliance fee, do I have to pay it?

So that's confirmation that there is no legislation that says the council are legally obliged to pass on the £75 compliance fee if you pay them direct. It therefore follows that they are not legally obliged to pass on any fees to the bailiff should the debtor pay them direct.

Many thanks.

Well i don't agree, but it you like, the question is, what difference does it make to the debtor, He still has to pay the total sum or else the bailiff calls and bumps the bill up, as he is fully entitled to do.
and Your welcome