Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Andy,

I have tried to explain things as best I can. I am having no further part in this thread.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

An interesting debate gentlemen. We have drifted a little off the original topic however, so perhaps it is worth restating the original point about Form 4 complaints and the need to be very careful when using them. They should only be used for the most serious of offences.

The difficulty with bailiff law is that there seems to be a difference between theory and reality. Theory is all well and good, but of little use if when something happens, the reality of how a bailiff / policeman behaves is completely different to the theory. We strive to work from reality here, while campaigning for what is actually written to be implemented as it should be in theory.

[bizzybob]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

We must ensure that they don't stray from what is written then LB

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

An interesting debate gentlemen. We have drifted a little off the original topic however, so perhaps it is worth restating the original point about Form 4 complaints and the need to be very careful when using them. They should only be used for the most serious of offences.

The difficulty with bailiff law is that there seems to be a difference between theory and reality. Theory is all well and good, but of little use if when something happens, the reality of how a bailiff / policeman behaves is completely different to the theory. We strive to work from reality here, while campaigning for what is actually written to be implemented as it should be in theory.

Yes indeed, on reading around, i can see the dangers of wrong advise regarding handling bailiffs, I bellieve that there are changes on the horizon which is promised to improve and clarify exactly what bailiffs can and cannot do.

As far as giving advice is concerned it is not only a matter of ensuring that the bailiff does not exceed his legal powers, but also care must be made to not ascribe legal sanctions that are not available.

Basically if it is felt that a bailiff has committed a criminal offence, report it to the police, it is not for the debtor to decide on the criminal liability, or if he did it would make no odds because it is what plod says that counts.

And for heavens sake do not even consider getting into a physical challenge with a bailiff, walk away and phone the police, and certainly do not attempt to arrest a bailiff, one you will end up looking very silly, and two you may end up getting arrested yourself.

Only my opinion as always

Andy

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Yes indeed, on reading around, i can see the dangers of wrong advise regarding handling bailiffs, I bellieve that there are changes on the horizon which is promised to improve and clarify exactly what bailiffs can and cannot do.

As far as giving advice is concerned it is not only a matter of ensuring that the bailiff does not exceed his legal powers, but also care must be made to not ascribe legal sanctions that are not available.

Basically if it is felt that a bailiff has committed a criminal offence, report it to the police, it is not for the debtor to decide on the criminal liability, or if he did it would make no odds because it is what plod says that counts.

And for heavens sake do not even consider getting into a physical challenge with a bailiff, walk away and phone the police, and certainly do not attempt to arrest a bailiff, one you will end up looking very silly, and two you may end up getting arrested yourself.

Only my opinion as always

Andy

I agree with you Andy FWIW. I was actually reading about elements of this 'Ghosh' test being unreliable anyway, but in essence the test, from what I can ascertain, boils down to common sense -

Would most people think this was a crime?

Would the person acting at the time think it was a crime?

That's pretty much it for all the posh wording - it's based on a court case R v Ghosh which is where it was first applied.

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I agree with you Andy FWIW. I was actually reading about elements of this 'Ghosh' test being unreliable anyway, but in essence the test, from what I can ascertain, boils down to common sense -

Would most people think this was a crime?

Would the person acting at the time think it was a crime?

That's pretty much it for all the posh wording - it's based on a court case R v Ghosh which is where it was first applied.

Prior to the Court of Appeal introducing the Ghosh Test, as a result of Ghosh appealing against his sentence, the previous test for dishonesty had three elements, all of which had to be satisfied, along with intent to permanently deprive, which still has to be proven today, otherwise any case for dishonesty is going to fail. Your wording of the two elements of the Ghosh Test are spot-on and explain it perfectly and clearly.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Your wording of the two elements of the Ghosh Test are spot-on and explain it perfectly and clearly.

Why thank you Sir! lol It makes you wonder why they couch it in terms that sound so complex - eg - In order to ascertain whether or not theft had been committed one would have to apply the Ghosh test.

Why not just say, is it wrong? Did he know it was wrong? Therein lies the joys of the law. :beagle:

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Why thank you Sir! lol It makes you wonder why they couch it in terms that sound so complex - eg - In order to ascertain whether or not theft had been committed one would have to apply the Ghosh test.

Why not just say, is it wrong? Did he know it was wrong? Therein lies the joys of the law. :beagle:

Of course from the debtors perspective, he could not prove the motives of the other party.

He would just report that he had suffered injury of some kind.

Any test for actionable criminality would be applied by the police.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Absolutely, and generally speaking, calling the police to a bailiff incident is about as much use as having a chocolate fireguard.

We seem to be in agreement now which is great, so perhaps a good time to move on to other issues?

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Why thank you Sir! lol It makes you wonder why they couch it in terms that sound so complex - eg - In order to ascertain whether or not theft had been committed one would have to apply the Ghosh test.

Why not just say, is it wrong? Did he know it was wrong? Therein lies the joys of the law. :beagle:

You're welcome, LM.

The reason for Statute Law being couched in gobbledegook stems from the days when a lot of MPs were practising lawyers and it was worded so vaguely, they and others in the legal profession would have plenty to argue about and nit-pick in court. That's the reason I was told when I did my police training at Hendon Police College and, TBH, there is an element of truth in it. I have noticed that more recent legislation appears to be worded more plainly, although there will always be instances where the higher courts have to adjudicate as to interpretation.

Turning to what you say in the second paragraph of your post, essentially, that is how Common Law looks at it. Over the years, the politicians have replaced Common Law with Statute Law, which is, essentially, administrative law, which serves no useful purpose other than to confuse and be abused. Scotland has a legal system based on Common Law, although it does have some elements of Statute Law imposed on it by Westminster.

Common Law = Commonsense

There appears to be a growing number of people who want to see a return to Common Law, in this country, and to repeal a lot of Statute Law which benefits only vested interests, corrupt politicians and those who see fit to ignore and abuse the law as they see fit.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

That, I think, is a whole different debate for another area of the forum.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Absolutely, and generally speaking, calling the police to a bailiff incident is about as much use as having a chocolate fireguard.

We seem to be in agreement now which is great, so perhaps a good time to move on to other issues?

Agreed

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Of course from the debtors perspective, he could not prove the motives of the other party.

He would just report that he had suffered injury of some kind.

Any test for actionable criminality would be applied by the police.

The problem is that bailiffs rely on debtors not being legally-savvy and the police not being trained in bailiff law.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I was surprised to see this, I thought we'd finished this one lol.

I think on the whole that's a fair assumption - that's why sites like this exist, to promote consumer rights is part of "our job."

Anyway, onto other posts for me.