Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

[bizzybob]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

andy58, I would think that the bailiff did more than a mistaken levy, possibly assault, along with perverting the course of justice, there was a case on another forum last year where a poster had been convicted of assaulting bailiffs who burst into her home, when actually they had not identified themselves at that point, they assaulted her as it happened, and her conviction was overturned on appeal, the bailiffs, police and council all had this sorry miscarriage of justice to their discredit.

[charitynjw]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I would be very interested to see this also BB is there perhaps some way it could be disclosed. 4 years custodial! it must have been quite a serious offence.

Playing devils advocate, I am sure that bailiffs would say that the threat of a possible criminal prosecution following a mistaken levy would seriously interfere with there ability to do their job, and sadly I can see the powers that be having some sympathy with this argument.

Don't forget time off for good behaviour.

Oh....wait.......bailiff......good behaviour..........

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

andy58, I would think that the bailiff did more than a mistaken levy, possibly assault, along with perverting the course of justice, there was a case on another forum last year where a poster had been convicted of assaulting bailiffs who burst into her home, when actually they had not identified themselves at that point, they assaulted her as it happened, and her conviction was overturned on appeal, the bailiffs, police and council all had this sorry miscarriage of justice to their discredit.

Yes I know they can behave appallingly, no one I think would disagree that proven case like the ones you mention should be the subject of criminal actions.

I think the problem will always exist as long as bailiffs do, their job is by definition unpleasant, and people will always take issue with their behavior even if they stick to what is allowable under the law.

This is, I believe what makes the position regarding criminal enforcement so difficult.

[bizzybob]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Yes I know they can behave appallingly, no one I think would disagree that proven case like the ones you mention should be the subject of criminal actions.

I think the problem will always exist as long as bailiffs do, their job is by definition unpleasant, and people will always take issue with their behavior even if they stick to what is allowable under the law.

This is, I believe what makes the position regarding criminal enforcement so difficult.

The problem is that this enforcement is often not over a criminal matter, it is recovery of a civil debt.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

The problem is that this enforcement is often not over a criminal matter, it is recovery of a civil debt.

Yes and of course in this, the Police have no powers.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

The problem is that this enforcement is often not over a criminal matter, it is recovery of a civil debt.

That matters not one jot! lol It is not the cause that is criminal, it is the action. The two are separate beasts.

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Yes and of course in this, the Police have no powers.

No. The police are kept in the dark as to what powers bailiffs actually have. That is the problem. Once police officers are fully put in the picture, bailiffs are going to be in for an awful shock when a plod turns up at an incident and nicks them, or threatens to nick them or removes them with the toe of their boot.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

No. The police are kept in the dark as to what powers bailiffs actually have. That is the problem. Once police officers are fully put in the picture, bailiffs are going to be in for an awful shock when a plod turns up at an incident and nicks them, or threatens to nick them or removes them with the toe of their boot.

You misunderstand, the police have no powers in civil matters, which was the point I thought that bizzybob was making.

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Whilst a bailiff may be enforcing a civil debt, Andy, if the bailiff crosses the line and commits a criminal act in the course of enforcing that civil debt, it then becomes a matter for the police, as it is they who are tasked with the duty of upholding and enforcing the law. Does that make things any clearer?

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Whilst a bailiff may be enforcing a civil debt, Andy, if the bailiff crosses the line and commits a criminal act in the course of enforcing that civil debt, it then becomes a matter for the police, as it is they who are tasked with the duty of upholding and enforcing the law. Does that make things any clearer?

A little, however it would clarify if there was some case law to support the contention.
The problem as I see it is getting the police to take action, since only police can pursue a criminal action, if they can't or won't, the rights or the wrongs(in a criminal sense) are pretty academic.

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

A little, however it would clarify if there was some case law to support the contention.
The problem as I see it is getting the police to take action, since only police can pursue a criminal action, if they can't or won't, the rights or the wrongs(in a criminal sense) are pretty academic.

That will happen once they receive training in bailiff law and what powers bailiffs have, Andy. At the moment, they are either completely in the dark or not quite sure as to what to do. Once they are enlightened and more sure of what bailiffs can and cannot do, that is when you will see a change in their attitude.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

That will happen once they receive training in bailiff law and what powers bailiffs have, Andy. At the moment, they are either completely in the dark or not quite sure as to what to do. Once they are enlightened and more sure of what bailiffs can and cannot do, that is when you will see a change in their attitude.

I see, so practically speaking, what happens if a debtor considers the bailiff is guilty of theft after reading on here that this is the case.

Does he just report it to the police(which from what you say would appear to be pointless, as they do not understand the law), or is there some other method of criminal enforcement.

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I see, so practically speaking, what happens if a debtor considers the bailiff is guilty of theft after reading on here that this is the case.

Does he just report it to the police(which from what you say would appear to be pointless, as they do not understand the law), or is there some other method of criminal enforcement.

It is a bit of a postcode lottery as to whether the police take action. A lot of police forces are pretty clueless. However, some have gone to the trouble of ensuring their officers are briefed about bailiffs. I am what many would call 'old school' from the days when police officers used their discretion and their commonsense, as well as their knowledge of the law. These days, sadly, the focus is on meeting targets and issuing tickets. Not surprisingly, the number of wrongful and illegal arrests has increased, resulting in claims against police forces increasing, too. Half the time, police officers are not focused on upholding the law, but meeting targets set by idiots who haven't a clue about policing.

Any person has the power to arrest a bailiff whom they with reasonable cause suspect to have committed or be committing an indictable offence under Section 24A, Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984. However, members of the public are often deterred from doing this.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Any person has the power to arrest a bailiff whom they with reasonable cause suspect to have committed or be committing an indictable offence under Section 24A, Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984. However, members of the public are often deterred from doing this.

I would not know how to go about arresting a bailiff, perhaps you could illustrate the procedure for the debtor.

[Inca]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Ooh I don't think 'illustrating how a bailiff could be arrested' is a good idea......there probably are some bailiffs reading this very thread.........be a shame to let them know what BlueBottle knows....let them find out for themselves