Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

[bizzybob]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

If it was the next door neighbours car they took and possibly sold without due diligence

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

You have stated that if a bailiff removed a vehicle without "lawful authority" etc etc, that you have the "essential elements" for Theft of Fraud.

You then gone on to talk about "Handling Stolen Goods". Apart from what is being stated on the other forum I do NOT know the basis of this complaint but I am confused by your statement.

On what basis do you consider that any bailiff enforcing a Distress Warrant does not have "Lawful Authority" and furthermore, on what basis do you consider that the bailiff could be at risk or arrest or prosecution for "handling stolen goods".

If might help if you had worked in law enforcement, as I have. Just because a certificated bailiff has a distress warrant does not, in itself, mean that the bailiff is exempt from compliance with the law, in its widest sense, nor does the warrant confer any immunity from prosecution or litigation upon the bailiff if they fail to comply with the conditions attached to the warrant.

To cite an example, if a bailiff takes a vehicle they are not lawfully permitted to take and subsequently discover the vehicle is exempt from seizure or belongs to a third party, they must return the vehicle to its lawful owner/keeper immediately. If they do not and it is then sold, the the bailiff is guilty of Theft per se (as it stands) at the point the bailiff decides not to return the vehicle, knowing they have a duty to return it to the lawful owner/keeper.

To cite another example, if a certificated bailiff removes a vehicle knowing they are doing so unlawfully or falsely misrepresent their powers in order to effect the removal of an exempt vehicle, whether deliberately or recklessly, they are guilty of an offence of Theft or Fraud by False Misrepresentation, whichever the case may be, ab initio (from the outset).

In the two examples citied above, if the bailiff, steals or obtains by fraudulent misrepresentation the vehicle and is then involved in arranging the vehicle's sale or disposal, in any way, they are then guilty of Handling Stolen Goods. If you read Section 24, Theft Act 1968, it should become clearer to you why this is the case.

What I am trying to do, Milo, is explain to peeps, in plain terms, exactly how certificated bailiffs can foul up so badly that their actions are criminal.

Where warrants are concerned, they are legal documents and must be complied with in the spirit and to the letter of the law, which means the conditions endorsed thereon must be complied with. A bailiff cannot pick and choose what conditions they are going to comply with and those they are not.

As I am sure you are aware, Milo, the civil enforcement industry bears more of a resemblance to the Wild West than it does a legitimate industry. Like it or not, it is an industry that exists by use of fraud, intimidation and violence.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I find this interesting, not being an expert on bailiff law(in fact not at all).
Situations like the ones you describe must have occurred over the last hundreds of years, is there any cases which we can look at where the police have undertaken a criminal action on these rogue bailiffs ?

Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I find this interesting, not being an expert on bailiff law(in fact not at all).
Situations like the ones you describe must have occurred over the last hundreds of years, is there any cases which we can look at where the police have undertaken a criminal action on these rogue bailiffs ?

Andy

The problem is, Andy, police officers, these days, are not trained in bailiff law, so they are easily hoodwinked by certificated bailiffs. However, this situation seems to be slowly turning around and police officers are waking up to the fact they are being lied to and, in some cases, being unwitting accessories to or aiders and abettors of criminal offences by the bailiff. Being a former police officer, I can tell you that the feeling you have been used in this way is not a pleasant one, believe me, and the temptation to beat seven buckets of crap out of a scrote who has done it to you can be very hard to resist.

I do know of one prosecution of a certificated bailiff for Perverting the Course of Justice and other serious criminal offences which happened to an LB member who was very brave in the face of what the bailiff did. The weasel got four years plus a lifetime ban from working in the public sector or holding public office plus other sanctions.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

The new guidelines posted a week or two ago specifically mention Fraud by Misrepresentation and, if I remember correctly, bailiffs facing criminal charges. Really we need to know the details of the case to be able to comment accurately.

[Milo]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Thank you Blue bottle for your detailed explanation.

If you are correct, and I have no doubt that your experience is without question, then the huge problem that a debtor may have is that if the bailiff has committed fraud.....mis-representation.....Handling Stolen Goods....offences under the Theft Act etc etc then the debtor must report the crime to the police and it would be for the police to investigate. As you have said you know of one prosecution. I have never heard of any cases where the police took forward a prosecution and I can assure you that I have made many enquiries over the past 5 years.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I do know of one prosecution of a certificated bailiff for Perverting the Course of Justice and other serious criminal offences which happened to an LB member who was very brave in the face of what the bailiff did. The weasel got four years plus a lifetime ban from working in the public sector or holding public office plus other sanctions.

Is there a link to this on the site as I don't remember it? Alternatively, do you remember the details of the court etc... so we could get details?

Thanks

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Thank you Blue bottle for your detailed explanation.

If you are correct, and I have no doubt that your experience is without question, then the huge problem that a debtor may have is that if the bailiff has committed fraud.....mis-representation.....Handling Stolen Goods....offences under the Theft Act etc etc then the debtor must report the crime to the police and it would be for the police to investigate. As you have said you know of one prosecution. I have never heard of any cases where the police took forward a prosecution and I can assure you that I have made many inquiries over the past 5 years.

This was the response I feared sadly, a person who comes onto the wrong end of one of these bailiffs and suspects criminal behavior can only report it to the police , and i they are unable to act, there seems little point.

[labman]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Number 10 here gives hope though, at least for Council Tax. Let's hope the guidance becomes reality:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...1-Useful-Links

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

The new guidelines posted a week or two ago specifically mention Fraud by Misrepresentation and, if I remember correctly, bailiffs facing criminal charges. Really we need to know the details of the case to be able to comment accurately.

Nice to see you back on forum, LM. I think Milo started this thread from an academic point of view and a debate has developed. It is good news that the new guidelines for bailiffs now makes it clear bailiffs could face criminal prosecution if they step out of line. Whether it deters them is another matter. Would I be correct in thinking the new guidance for CT enforcement follows Eric Pickles' recent announcement?

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

Is there a link to this on the site as I don't remember it? Alternatively, do you remember the details of the court etc... so we could get details?

Thanks

I'll send you a PM, LM.

[bizzybob]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

If they took a car on finance (HP) and sold it claiming they could, and that they would pay the remainder of the HP to the FC, using that as a defence, and the FC said no dice, then imho again I feel the bailiff and his superiors would be guilty of theft ab initio

[Milo]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

This was the response I feared sadly, a person who comes onto the wrong end of one of these bailiffs and suspects criminal behavior can only report it to the police , and i they are unable to act, there seems little point.

You are spot on.

And this is the reason as to WHY a Form 4 Complaint would have been the WRONG course of action. Bailiff law is a complete ass and I only hope that the new regulations due to come into force next April will make things better.

[bluebottle]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

You are spot on.

And this is the reason as to WHY a Form 4 Complaint would have been the WRONG course of action. Bailiff law is a complete ass and I only hope that the new regulations due to come into force next April will make things better.

Exactly, Milo. The Criminal Law exists to deal with criminal acts. However, it would not be improper if, following conviction, a certificated bailiff was hauled in front of the Circuit or District Judge at the court that issued the bailiff's certificate and revoked it, especially if a conviction was for criminal dishonesty, a sexual offence or violence.

Don't forget that there is Form 5 which can be completed where an investigation has taken place into a bailiff's conduct and the investigating body submits it to the court with its findings.

However, Form 4 or 5 is not always necessary. Sometimes, a letter to the Circuit or District Judge with accompanying evidence, statements, etc., can result in a bailiff's certificate being revoked without a Form 4 or 5 complaint being submitted or a hearing. This happened to a Ross & Roberts bailiff, during 2012. The court used its powers under Civil Procedures Rules to make a decision on its own initiative and to dispose of a case without a hearing.

[Guest]

Re: Form 4 Complaints and the dangers of taking "legal" advice

I would be very interested to see this also BB is there perhaps some way it could be disclosed. 4 years custodial! it must have been quite a serious offence.

Playing devils advocate, I am sure that bailiffs would say that the threat of a possible criminal prosecution following a mistaken levy would seriously interfere with there ability to do their job, and sadly I can see the powers that be having some sympathy with this argument.