Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

[ThreeYearsAndCounting]

A friend of mine has received a bailiffs letter, giving notice of intention to seize goods to repay a debt.

The debt is about £4000 from 3 years ago (unpaid business rates for a restaurant), bailiffs costs are already £285 (for one visit!). The debt is with a different council from where she currently lives.

Her annual income is c£8.5k, housing benefits £1.8k, she lives alone in a bedsit, the total value of her belongings less than £700, money in the bank less than £100. She no longer runs a restaurant or any other business.

She is 60 years old, does not read or write English, speaks English as her third language, but holds a British passport.

We have tried to speak to the council about this but they say the matter is with the Bailiffs and we have to deal with them.

I have written 3 letters to Council, 3 to bailiffs (variously mentioning her age, the fact that she can't read, undue stress, that she will not allow peaceful entry, asking for 21 days to consider her options), there have been no replies to any letter.

I have visited CAB but they really just told me what I already knew, and were not really prepared to give advice, hence asking here.

We have made regular contact with the bailiff by phone, but he is becoming impatient.


What options does my friend have?

Pay all (borrowing from friends?)

Make an offer to pay a reduced amount to clear the debt.

The bailiff has suggested paying £500 now (which she does not have, but might be able to find), but the most she could afford after that would be £50 / month, so debt would not be paid off for 6 years. I can't see the bailiff accepting this.

Others?


A couple of questions:

Why are bailiffs costs already £285 for what seems to be a single visit?

Why won't the council speak to us about this or reply to our letters?

My friend is very stressed by all this. Any suggestions would be very helpful.

I don't know if this is relevant or not but my friend declared herself bankrupt 5 years ago (debts not related to any business).

Apologies for any typos in the above. Stressful times!

[teaboy2]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

First questions, was the business a sole trader or registered as a limited company? I ask because if it was a limited company then the debt for business rates is that of the companies not your friends debt, as a limited company is a sperate legal entity. If it was a sole trader company and not a registered company then am afraid she would be lliabel for the debt.

Also the fees are unlawful i believe, but am not a specialise on bailiff fees. Hopefully other members with more knowledge on bailiff laws and regulations can help with that.

[labman]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

The National Standards for Enforcement Agents (Jan 2012) define those who are possibly vulnerable as:

Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:

the elderly;

people with a disability;

the seriously ill;

the recently bereaved;

single parent families;

pregnant women;

unemployed people; and,

those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.


Given your friend falls into two of those categories, she should be given the benefit of doubt, in my opinion, and be classified as vulnerable.

Using this and the next paragraph, I would re-visit the council, or write to the CEO, with a sensible repayment plan, demanding the debt is taken back by them. The council employees are quite simply lying when they say they cannot take it back and your friend must deal with the bailiffs.

The fees charged to date are unlawful, so she should not have to pay one penny in fees. The fees are prescribed in law, and if they have only sent one letter, off the top of my head I think the fee is £11.20.

The bailiff company has comitted the criminal offence of Fraud. Bluebottle is likely to comment on this later.

IF the bailiffs turn up at her property, tell her NOT to let them in under any circumstances. If possible record, or video their actions and words. Ask for identification and make a note of names etc... Remember to keep doors locked and windows shut to stop 'peaceful entry' and get onto the council fast with the repayment plan.

I'd go straight to the CEO, pointing out the council's vicarious liability for their appointed enforcement officers and asking them to take the debt back, given the vulnerability of the debtor in question.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

A friend of mine has received a bailiffs letter, giving notice of intention to seize goods to repay a debt.

The debt is about £4000 from 3 years ago (unpaid business rates for a restaurant), bailiffs costs are already £285 (for one visit!). The debt is with a different council from where she currently lives.

If the restaurant is a company or a Limited liability partnership, then the directors or partners are not personally liable for the debt. If the company has ceased trading, you might need to seek advice what happens to the debt.

Her annual income is c£8.5k, housing benefits £1.8k, she lives alone in a bedsit, the total value of her belongings less than £700, money in the bank less than £100. She no longer runs a restaurant or any other business.

Then the bailiff is unable to recover the debt and will be returned it to the council.

She is 60 years old, does not read or write English, speaks English as her third language, but holds a British passport.

see Labmans post - vulnerable households -

If you are a vulnerable person for the purpose of civil enforcement, then the Ministry of Justice publishes a guide for bailiffs which recommends they cease enforcement action against you.The new National Standards for Enforcement Agents http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/...ent-agents.pdf See page 9: Vulnerable situations.

Heres a template letter you can use to send to the council and another for the bailiffs: http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/#vulnerable

For the time being, she should communicate only with the council, and keep the bailiffs out: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=32490

[ThreeYearsAndCounting]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Thanks for the replies.

The restaurant was not a limited company, so I think the debt is hers.

I have written to the Council and to the Bailiffs (quoting NSEA guidelines) stating that we believe she qualifies as a 'vulnerable person' on the grounds of age and inability to read and write English, but they do not seem to accept this. How can we escalate this?

She owns a small (old) car, which has not beeen levied. If she sells this car, does the sale have to be at a market rate, and would a simple receipt for the sale be sufficient to prove that the car belongs to the new owner? She would remain the registered keeper. If the sale took place before the car was levied would this be legal?

Once again thanks for the replies. Hoping to make some progress sorting this out this weekend.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Okay. What Labman has said about the bailiff committing Fraud by False Misrepresentation is correct, as is the vicarious liability of the council for the bailiff's actions.

This lady is certainly vulnerable. Is there any chance she could be classed as "at risk"? If that were to be so, the council would be in serious excrement for harassing her with the threat of a bailiff. There is something called Duty of Care, which is legally-enforceable. The bailiff would probably get in the neck as well. As well as getting the letter of to the CEO of the council, asap, see if the lady is classed as "at risk". This would have a significant bearing on the matter.

Regarding the matter of the car, as no levy has been made on it, it's hers to do with as she sees fit. Once money has changed hands, legally, the buyer becomes the owner. All the lady would have to do is complete the V5C and send it to DVLA.

If the bailiff is ignoring national guidelines with regard to vulnerable persons, I would make an educated guess that this might be grounds for making a formal complaint against the bailiff to the court that issued his/her certificate. However, I am sure other LB members who are more familiar with complaints against bailiffs will correct me if I am incorrect in what I say.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Try a formal complaint.

[HEAD OF TYPE OF DEBT ENFORCEMENT]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: [TYPE OF DEBT] [ACCOUNT NO.] VULNERABLE HOUSEHOLDS

I make this formal complaint because I received bailiff from you on [DATE] collecting the aforementioned [TYPE OF DEBT] and demanded the sum of [AMOUNT].

I confirm I have been medically declared by my doctor to be a vulnerable person for the purposes of civil enforcement as defined in the national Standards for Enforcement Agents published by the Ministry of Justice http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/...ent-agents.pdf on page 9.

Where a debtor falling into a vulnerable persons category is discovered by an enforcement agent, the matter shall be referred back to the court and no seizure of goods may proceed.

To resolve this complaint:

1. Return the case to council administration within seven (7) days of the date of this letter
2. Confirm in writing to me at the above address this has been done

On receipt of your confirmation I will make payments of [AMOUNT] each week for [NUMBER OF] weeks starting on [DATE IN 30 DAYS TIME] until the total amount due being [AMOUNT ON THE LIABILITY ORDER] has been paid.

If you are unable, or unwilling to resolve this complaint in full, please mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.


Yours Sincerely.


[YOUR NAME]

Cc – [NAME OF BAILIFF COMPANY]

Make a letter using this template and keep it ready by your door. If a bailiff returns, hand it to him through the letterbox or a window. DO NOT open the door and DO NOT engage conversation. Have your mobile ready.

[ThreeYearsAndCounting]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Many thanks again for the replies.

Sorry for asking (probably!) obvious questions (my brain is still a bit scrambled by all of this). If, for example, she was to sell the car to me (I am already a named driver on the insurance), but she was to remain the registered keeper, would we still need to do anything about the V5C? Also, if she sold the car, does she have to sell at a genuine market price? I'm guessing that a signed receipt would be sufficient as proof of sale?

Thanks for the pro-forma letter regarding 'vulnerable persons'. Could we use the letter without the paragraph relating to the doctor's declaration?

[miliitant]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

question i would like to ask also

you mention that if its a ltd company then the owner is protected against debt
(unless by personal guarantee) if the business folds

is not business rates classed the same as community charge

that being a tax and not subject to the regulations on enforcement such as statute barred, etc

they can chase you for a tak forever

i would like an answer to this as i truly do not know the answer

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

The Regulations covering NNDR are broadly similar to those for Council Tax and the fees the Bailiff can charge are basically the same. Bailiffs however are well noted for charging what they think rather than what they are allowed as most small businesses know no better and believe them to be correct.

You say you are having trouble establishing her vulnerability, is this because it has been done over the phone? You do need to write to both Council & Bailiffs writing the reasons down against the Guidelines offered and where necessary providing proof. In both instances this may be done by email backed up by a letter in the post.

Have you asked for a breakdown of the fees the Bailiff has charged? If not you should do so ASAP to find out exactly what has been claimed - I would actually suspect he has claimed to have done a levy but "forgotten" to have left the legally required Notice of Seizure. Reasons being the Bailiff is preying on her language vulnerability.

I also note you have not mentioned the name of Council or Bailiffs. Are you aware that most Councils outsource their admin functions including Revenues to a private Company - most notably one called Capita. They is turn own 2 Bailiff firms:
1 - Equita
2 - Ross & Roberts
There is no incentive for Capita to be helpful and if you are telephoning you should ask if you are actually speaking to a Council employee.

[ThreeYearsAndCounting]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Thanks again.

I have wriiten to both the Council and the Bailiffs about her vulnerability. I did not send proof of her age and I do not think I can find anyway to prove her inability to read or write English. Should I send further letters with a copy of her passport / driving licence etc. There does not appear to be a definition of 'elderly' in the NSEA guidelines!

We have not asked for a breakdown of the Bailiffs fees. He said on the 'phone (to me) that they charge £285.00 as soon as the Council notifies them. I'll send a letter to the Bailiffs to ask for a breakdown. They did put a Notice of Seizure though the letterbox, but have not gained entry nor levied any items.

I have not mentioned the specific Council or Bailiffs due to concerns about who might read these forums. Does it help people here to give advice if I do name them? The Council is not the Countil where she currently lives.

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Can you list the items seized exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure? Has he not listed on the reverse of this the fees he has charged? What date is in the seizure notice? No need to mention the Council or Bailiffs if you do not want to - I only mentioned it in passing as I did not know if there may be a stitch up between the Capita/Equita/R&R triangle.

[ThreeYearsAndCounting]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Can you list the items seized exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure? Has he not listed on the reverse of this the fees he has charged? What date is in the seizure notice? No need to mention the Council or Bailiffs if you do not want to - I only mentioned it in passing as I did not know if there may be a stitch up between the Capita/Equita/R&R triangle.

This is from memory, the document he put through the door is with my friend, not me. Dated 1/2/12, did not list any items, stated that he had attended to sieze items to recover a debt and to contact him by 'phone. Specified the Council to whom the debt was owed, but not an amount. No details of any fees given.

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

In that case I assume it is just a Bailiff Attendance letter. The purpose of the visit by the Bailiff is to levy goods, if when he attends he cannot:
a - gain access via peaceful means
b - meet or speak to the person in charge of the building or premises
c - otherwise able to levy on goods externally - most notably a motor vehicle
He may then charge a 1st Visit fee of £24-50. If he attends again and similar happens then he may then charge a 2nd Visit fee of £18-00. No matter how many more times he attends and the same happens he may make no further charges. This comes to a total of £42-50 only.

If however he is able to levy on any goods because he has gained access to the property or seized goods outside then the whole ball game & charges change. It is imperative you instruct your friend not to open the door if the Bailiff comes calling - he can be spoken to through the letterbox or an upstairs window and where possible try to record the conversation. Remember there is no law that says you have to speak to or deal with a Bailiff. He may threaten all sorts - Police, locksmiths, imprisonment etc but in reality can do nothing.

He will only be interested as he think he can coerce or intimidate the debtor but when he finds this does not work will move on to another "victim" who may be more cooperative. It is still possible to pay the Council direct using online banking, Council website or automated phone. If your friend is on certain Benefits then an Attachment to Benefits may be possible - regardless of the length of time it will take to pay. Is your friend sure she owes this much, are you sure she is not being charged for a period of time after she closed & moved.

[ThreeYearsAndCounting]

Re: Bailiffs chasing Business Rates arrears

Thanks again for replying, this is helping a lot.

She knows not to let him in, she is quite a tough cookie so I think she will be OK.

I've asked for (and received) copies of the original bills for Business Rates (two bills as across two years) and the amounts seem to be correct. The total includes £166 which I think is 2 x £83 for court summonses.