That referendum ...

[enaid]

Re: That referendum ...

Let's hope it's Theresa then.

Well heaven only knows how low she'll stoop to get the job :beagle:

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

Reading Crazycouncils post im thinking this may be the start of the end of the EU its outgrown its usefulness

[enaid]

Re: That referendum ...

Reading Crazycouncils post im thinking this may be the start of the end of the EU its outgrown its usefulness

Already started
France's National Front leader Marine Le Pen said the French must now also have the right to choose.
Dutch anti-immigration politician Geert Wilders said the Netherlands deserved a "Nexit" vote while Italy's Northern League said: "Now it's our turn".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36615879

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

Today will see a change in Europe beginning all the predictions of both sides will be forthcoming or not

[Crazy council]

Re: That referendum ...

Reading Crazycouncils post im thinking this may be the start of the end of the EU its outgrown its usefulness

I think something new will come out of it, this will just shake up some of the other eu members that have been arguing the rules for there benefit rather than the full EU ( cough cough France, italy ). I just think during the confusion and time it takes to settle this out, we will get the crappy end of the stick as the other EU nations try sure up themselves,

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

i can hope..

[Openlaw15]

Re: That referendum ...

I don't know what the split will be but I predict a close win for remain. That's what the market is predicting and you know what they say about always follow the money.

Follow the people not businesses and markets. Giving the people the referendum was like giving Superman's enemy kryptonite.

[Amethyst]

Re: That referendum ...

lol, it crashed



I don't agree. And I doubt the 52% who did vote leave will agree.

If we wanted something like that it should have been put in place before the ref was announced. It wasn't - had it been a single vote one way or t'other we'd be stuck with it.

[Openlaw15]

Re: That referendum ...

Great result which has given us just what the country needs ie division and years of economic uncertainty.

Still one thing we do know for sure is that we can be confident in the knowledge that our summer holidays will cost us more now the pound has plummeted in value.

Well if Brits start investing in their own country as far as tourism goes perhaps that will help the UK's economy, rather than benefit foreign country's economies. The political elites entered into the Maastricht Treaty threatening Parliament if they didn't play the game that the Tory government would pass it using the ancient royal prerogative. Were the poor who were likely to be massively affected consulted, no is the answer. So, what happens the middle class are not affected but the poor working class in low paying jobs are affected. Is it really any wonder that the poor working classes whose wages are staggeringly low given the average wage for the UK any way, decided to vote to get out. No, it is like saying 'thanks for screwing us lot for year, guess what we've returned the favour' to the political elites who let's face it were using ad hominem saying that the people who were genuinely concerned for their job, quality of life, were racist bigots. We all knew this was just non sequitur rhetoric. The EU gravy train for the political elites and 'big business' has come to the end of the busy track.

[Amethyst]

Re: That referendum ...

Serious question. EU Judgments and Rulings. ECJ, ECHR. Do we lose them all?

[enaid]

Re: That referendum ...

http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/if-...gal-decisions/

[Openlaw15]

Re: That referendum ...

lol, it crashed



I don't agree. And I doubt the 52% who did vote leave will agree.

If we wanted something like that it should have been put in place before the ref was announced. It wasn't - had it been a single vote one way or t'other we'd be stuck with it.

I did say the anti Br-exits would call for a 2nd referendum. For the UK to leave the EU article 50 must be followed. The Lisbon Treaty amending existing EU Treaty law states, at article 50.

Can the UK join the EU again even if it were to leave the EU? According to Article 50 and Article 49, yes it can.


"Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."


Article 49

"Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall be notified of this application. The applicant State shall address its application to the Council, which shall act unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, which shall act by a majority of its component members. The conditions of eligibility agreed upon by the European Council shall be taken into account.

The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded which such admission entails shall be the subject of an agreement between the Member States and the applicant State. This agreement shall be submitted for ratification by all the contracting States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."

Can the UK negotiate a frame work with the EU even if it were no longer an EU member state (country in the EU).? Yes it can

Article 218

"1. Without prejudice to the specific provisions laid down in Article 207, agreements between the Union and third countries or international organisations shall be negotiated and concluded in accordance with the following procedure.

2. The Council shall authorise the opening of negotiations, adopt negotiating directives, authorise the signing of agreements and conclude them.

3. The Commission, or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy where the agreement envisaged relates exclusively or principally to the common foreign and security policy, shall submit recommendations to the Council, which shall adopt a decision authorising the opening of negotiations and, depending on the subject of the agreement envisaged, nominating the Union’s negotiator or the head of the Union’s negotiating team.

4. The Council may address directives to the negotiator and designate a special committee in consultation with which the negotiations must be conducted.

5. The Council, on a proposal by the negotiator, shall adopt a decision authorising the signing of the agreement and, if necessary, its provisional application before entry into force.

6. The Council, on a proposal by the negotiator, shall adopt a decision concluding the agreement. Except where agreements relate exclusively to the common foreign and security policy, the Council shall adopt the decision concluding the agreementa) after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament in the following cases: (i) association agreements; (ii) agreement on Union accession to the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms; (iii) agreements establishing a specific institutional framework by organising cooperation procedures; (iv) agreements with important budgetary implications for the Union;(v) agreements covering fields to which either the ordinary legislative procedure applies, or the special legislative procedure where consent by the European Parliament is required.

The European Parliament and the Council may, in an urgent situation, agree upon a time-limit for consent. (b) after consulting the European Parliament in other cases. The European Parliament shall deliver its opinion within a time-limit which the Council may set depending on the urgency of the matter. In the absence of an opinion within that time-limit, the Council may act.

7. When concluding an agreement, the Council may, by way of derogation from paragraphs 5, 6 and 9, authorise the negotiator to approve on the Union’s behalf modifications to the agreement where it provides for them to be adopted by a simplified procedure or by a body set up by the agreement. The Council may attach specific conditions to such authorisation.

8. The Council shall act by a qualified majority throughout the procedure. However, it shall act unanimously when the agreement covers a field for which unanimity is required for the adoption of an act of the Union as well as for association agreements and the agreements referred to in Article 212 with the States which are candidates for accession. The Council shall act unanimously for the agreement on accession of the Union to the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms; the decision concluding this agreement shall enter
into force after it has been approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

9. The Council, on a proposal from the Commission or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, shall adopt a decision suspending application of an agreement and establishing the positions to be adopted on the Union’s behalf in a body set up by an agreement, when that body is called upon to adopt acts having legal effects, with the exception of acts supplementing or amending the institutional framework of the agreement.

10. The European Parliament shall be immediately and fully informed at all stages of the procedure.

11. A Member State, the European Parliament, the Council or the Commission may obtain the opinion of the Court of Justice as to whether an agreement envisaged is compatible with the Treaties. Where the opinion of the Court is adverse, the agreement envisaged may not enter into force unless it is amended or the Treaties are revised."

[Openlaw15]

Re: That referendum ...

Serious question. EU Judgments and Rulings. ECJ, ECHR. Do we lose them all?

Sharon, I think this is a complex question.

EU institutions: ie ECJ

For the next 5 years of so, no, everything is likely to stay the same. Only after the UK has invoked article 50 and the period it takes to the dissolve the relationship, ie 2 years or longer, EU law is still automatically binding on the UK's legal system, including its Employ tribunals. After possibly 5 years some EU law will be watertight as it will have integrated into the UK's legal system, or entrenched as we call it. However, some ECJ decisions may lose legal authority for the UK but still persuasive authority, ie EU job seekers on state benefits if they can actively show they're looking for work. The ECJ rules that they can stay in the member state (ie UK). So after about 5 years this will likely be over-turned.

ECHR - ie Human Rights. This remains in power unless the Tory government persuades Parliament to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998. There is also an EU Charter on Human Rights which I believe is virtually if not entirely the same as the UK version, just integrated into EU law.

[Amethyst]

Re: That referendum ...

But when it's all sorted we won't be able to appeal over the UKSC to ECJ any more and Judgments and rulings at the ECJ won't be able to be used as authorities in our cases ? (unless they already have been pre-exit)

[Openlaw15]

Re: That referendum ...

But when it's all sorted we won't be able to appeal over the UKSC to ECJ any more and Judgments and rulings at the ECJ won't be able to be used as authorities in our cases ? (unless they already have been pre-exit)

As Cameron said and the Bank of England's Governor echoed, everything stays the same: Freedom of Movement of Goods; Services; Finances et cetera, operates as normal. Only after the invoking of Art 50 and the negotiations to the leave the EU will the law be affected.

As it stands any EU decision is automatically legally binding on the County Court to the Supreme Court. If there are two possible interpretations ie UK versus EU, then currently EU interpretation wins: 75% of UK cases lose in the ECJ, according to the Express. Yes in democratic countries such as the UK, the Supreme Court could still hear EU cases as it's likely to be entrenched as binding precedent to an extent in England/ Wales common law. However, the appeal courts in the UK do not, legally speaking, have to follow the precedents unless they're considered entrenched, they're then only persuasive authorities. The Supreme Court is the constitutional court of this country so it is the final say on whether existing ECJ case law is entrenched. In comparison human rights law is not as powerful as EU law in terms of the UK's sovereignty, a Parliament sovereignty.

[PAWS]

Re: That referendum ...

Well, if we are looking to see what people like Le Pen are doing we are saying a lot. That is scary.
Our only hope is that the rest of Europe will leave and the EU as we know it will be dissolved -there is a good chance as the UK was a main contributor. Then at least the playing field will be level again but I can tell you one thing; It is almost impossible to find anyone who voted for Margaret Thatcher now and in a year, or even less,we may struggle to find anyone who will admit to voting leave yesterday.
I stayed up last night and watched things unfold and even the Brexiters looked alarmed when sterling plummeted. That is only the merest hint of what is about to happen.
Last night the UK went on a bender and like all massive benders it will be followed by a big hangover and a desperate attempt to forget what we did.
Anyone who thinks their doctors receptionist will suddenly start smiling and rushing you through is living in cloud cuckoo land. There will be a mass exodus but the baby is being thrown outwith the bath water as Doctors who keep us alive and investors and industrialists who put money in our pockets will be leading that stampede.