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That referendum ...

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  • Re: That referendum ...

    meellis,
    You say that some companies are now doing well because of the value of the £ and want for it to keep falling. The £ is at a 30 year low against $ and while yes, some may be doing well, I would suggest that if they need this to do well there is something wrong- however as the inflationary pressures of a falling currency come through how will they cope. Example will be fuel , of course this is bought months ahead but if the £ stays low fuel will increase probably leading to further inflation.

    It is indeed early days but a lot of damage has been done putting us back a long way. I have an opinion that the British people have made a monumental mistake, I realise that this has divided not just the country but families as well. It has placed some of us in the most difficult positions. I know of parents who have voted out when they have children living abroad or married to EU nationals living here, no one knows yet how this will affect them-to show the stupidity of the thinking, one said to me 'I did't think of X as an immigrant , to me immigrants are those that are claiming benefits' It is possibly one of the most stupid comments I have ever heard but out of respect for my friend I did not let rip - otherwise I would have

    You have a good argument about not being able to survive on other peoples money but the world is and has changed, Globally service sector has been the largest employer for some time getting on to twice the number of people than the manufacturing sector. If you want to return to the days when Britain had a major manufacturing base you need to change the whole world economy and that can not happen while the same politicians and systems are in place. While we are all happy to use our cheap technology and clothes we will never see a change, even the expensive designer labels that people buy are made in sweat shops.

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    • Re: That referendum ...

      Paws
      I agree with almost everything that you say and i would just remind posters of where huge sums of money came from to reinvigorate the north after it was decimated in the 80's. Yes it came from the EU, do you think we can ask them for some more?

      Whatever happens there will now be considerable short/medium term damage

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      • Re: That referendum ...

        Strangely Berti I understand and agree with a lot you post but I am also realistic enough to know they are many sides to an argument. I voted out as I have already said mainly because I feel that the EU was getting too big and trying to standardise too many different countries who have their own beliefs, lifestyles and agenda's. Also Cameron was always campaigning for us to stay in a reformed EU even though he knew he had failed miserably in trying to obtain the reformations he wanted. The EU have given us a lot of money back to help regenerate areas we ourselves have decimated but remember the EU is distributing money based on the subsidies paid by its members even if it was funding from the European central bank it would have been issued based on funding projections. We import more than we export , which isn't sustainable long term, and there are quite a few firms who argue that the strength of the pound made us un-competitive in the wider world.
        I said in a lot of earlier posts that I believed that too many people voted with a total lack of understanding of the issues at stake but I also have to ask if they had voted the same with full understanding would there still be the same reaction from the losing side, I think we both know the answer. My main concerns at this moment though is people talking about how the country is suffering due to a lack of confidence in its abilities. A lot of the flames of this fire are being fanned by the inability of the MP's to stop squabbling and get on with the job at hand and the general public believing and enlarging the stories of doom and gloom. You wouldn't lend to a friend if they were convincing themselves they wouldn't be in a position to pay it back.

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        • Re: That referendum ...

          I know that you believe that different countries in europe have different standards etc but almost exclusively they are western Christian as opposed to eastern Orthodox or Muslim and follow a similar set of values. The far east , the so called Tiger economies tend to follow the Confucian ideologies. A really interesting thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations which contradicts the End of History Thesis suggests that the west will be in conflict with the rest, I would prefer to be part of that group.

          I am glad we agree on some points, but I do think that the legal status of the referendum and the rights of the PM to invoke article 50 with or without Parliament's consent is needed. This of course should have been settled before any referendum.

          The question is, if it needs a vote in parliament, how will it go and how long will it take, quite possibly beyond the life of this government. AS someone who is firmly opposed to leaving I also think this will do untold harm but once we press the button there will be no going back, of course if we leave it, it is likely that reforms within the EU will happen- we might have a far right presidency in Austria and other referenda (ums)

          I agree that too many people voted for very wrong reasons and I wish I knew what the best course of action now was. Even if we know that exit is a mistake ( lets just assume) should we over ride the referendum result? If the EU implements some reforms, then what so we do what Boris the Buffoon wanted which was a 2nd referendum.

          In my view, I should become the benevolent dictator but that in itself would force us out of the EU as we would not be a democracy

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          • Re: That referendum ...

            A question for those remainers How much money has the EU given the UK that was not given by the UK in the first place
            If you cannot give an answer and back it up why are you putting up all this about what the EU has given us

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            • Re: That referendum ...

              That will take some time and research to give an accurate answer however I could ask the leavers the same question, just how much money have we paid to the EU that has not been given back by means of grants and subsidise and please include the cost of business that we have gained or lost due to membership

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              • Re: That referendum ...

                [MENTION=84575]Berti[/MENTION] and slightly off topic, but I studied the Clash of Civilizations in University in regards to the break up of Yugoslavia as I think the fault lines envisaged crossed through that part of the world.

                In regards to Article 50, my understanding is that Parliament will need to agree to this which I think is likely due to the majority of people voting out. If it goes to Parliament, I know the MP for Cambridge(where I'm from) will vote against any bill due to the 70%+ support for remain. Other MP's will likely to vote for it in areas where that vote did state out. Clearly SNP will vote against the bill, Sinn Fein won't take part for obvious reasons and therefore the government will get the bill through Parliament. I think that the short term issues that are coming out was predicted but in 12 months time perhaps revisiting it will produce results that were expected and unexpected positive consequences(such as a load of EU citizens boosting the coffers by paying £65.00 per person for permanent residence status ).

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Berti View Post
                That will take some time and research to give an accurate answer however I could ask the leavers the same question, just how much money have we paid to the EU that has not been given back by means of grants and subsidise and please include the cost of business that we have gained or lost due to membership
                Do I get a biscuit?
                https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/
                "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
                (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

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                • Re: That referendum ...

                  Leclerc
                  you are spot on when you say that the fault lines run through the former Yugoslavia however many of the orthodox states are yet to be members of the EU. This is accounted for in the thesis by suggesting non western civilisations could assimilate. I only know about this as I wrote an essay on identity politics as part of an undergraduate module, mind you an 89 was quite a nice mark. ( Sorry I couldn't resist, and no I don't think it makes me any better than anyone)

                  Thanks for the link , you beat me to it, this does not include grants to NGOs or other non governmental groups and how do we measure the benefit of an NGO. It is almost I pissble, just like the millions companies spend on sponsorship and brand advertising.

                  As as I said, it will take a lot of research and just at the moment I am trying to take a break from study.

                  Questions like ice these should have been addressed by both sides before the referendum . As for article 50 we share the same understanding but there are at least two court cases currently underway to decide this. As you say it will be an interesting vote and I am not 100% sure that they will vote the way their areas voted. Two Tory constituencies have issued almost identical statements which suggests there is currently a party line. They are Eccleshall and Bosworth so not really next door and the MP for Selly Oak has said he will vote against any plan to leave based I think on the fact that his is a university area.

                  That at of course brings another point, the millions paid by the European Union to universities for research that will not be included in the full facts link.

                  I inow now for a fact Warwick receive huge sums and have huge numbers of eu students as does Birmingham and Coventry.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  I wouldn't put it past the SNP to vote for the bill if they thought brexit would hasten their independence.

                  By the way, did walesman note that Wales gets large grants from the EU. Before we know it, it will be little old England on its Todd.

                  Comment


                  • Re: That referendum ...

                    Originally posted by wales01man View Post
                    A question for those remainers How much money has the EU given the UK that was not given by the UK in the first place
                    If you cannot give an answer and back it up why are you putting up all this about what the EU has given us
                    Besides rebates and subsidies the value to the UK economy is estimated to be many billions more than we have ever handed over to the EU coffers.
                    Free trade and investment from European companies = Jobs. EU negotiated trade agreements with the rest of the world have also helped reduce the cost of imports and made our exports more attractive. We may hate the big money boys but many are based in London because they can then trade across Europe from a stable English speaking base. The amount of money they contribute, not only in various direct and indirect taxes plus keeping support business going is almost impossible to estimate. Even the companies supplying printed stationary to theses big financial companies will go bust if they leave.


                    An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after 50 floors says, 'So far so good'!
                    ~ Anonymous

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                    • Re: That referendum ...

                      OK, The actual - not dreamed up pulled out of a hat- figure we gave to the EU last year was £17.8 billion. We received £5 billion in rebates and subsidies came to roughly £6 billion.
                      Originally it was thought by economists that EU private investment in UK companies was between £6 and £7 billion but now they have factored in the knock on effect of this investment -that is the contribution to the local economy, treasury and national supply chains they push that figure up to approximately £10 billion although it is almost impossible to be accurate. Put it this way; when it is gone we will all notice!
                      So if you work out the sums the UK economy benefited -yep that is benefited to the tune of £3.2 billion quid last year by being members of the EU. And please, don’t anyone say ‘Why did we not know all this before’. It was spelt out over and over again, ignored and laughed at.

                      An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after 50 floors says, 'So far so good'!
                      ~ Anonymous

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                      • Re: That referendum ...

                        Paws

                        There are a few people that I will pass that info onto and shove it where the sun don't shine. Some of those I have in mind are right wing bigots , not necessarily members of this forum. Does the name Leadsome mean anything to you? ��

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                        • Re: That referendum ...

                          I'm sorry PAWS, I cant argue with your figures because I don't have the answer but I would worry about the wording. "Originally it was thought by economists that EU private investment in UK companies was between £6 and £7 billion but now they have factored in the knock on effect of this investment ". Thought isn't a word I would associate with a definite, I thought I was a millionaire but it turns out I am a bankrupt. The factoring was this on the thought sum or on an accountable sum? Could this still be made if investments come from elsewhere or is it remotely possible that more could be made. A cup could be half full or half empty it has still got the same amount in but the wording somehow projects a different feeling. We are going to feel this, no doubt but the only actual figures there are the amount given, the rebate and the subsidies the rest is just speculation.

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                          • Re: That referendum ...

                            Even without the factoring it makes net contribution about zero but that does not include employment protection and basic rights. Worth much more imho

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                            • Re: That referendum ...

                              Let's take one company that has suggested leaving. Morgan Stanley.
                              It employs approximately 5000 people in London. The average salary, and I am being very, very conservative here, is £45k. Right, from that £45k, assuming BUPA etc are provided, they probably pay £900 in PAYE & NI. So ONE COMPANY, JUST ONE, CONTRIBUTES £54 MILLION per year in direct payments to the treasury just from it’s employees! Add on corporate tax, add on the employment of contractors such as cleaners, add on suppliers such as stationers, utilities.
                              If you examine companies such as Nissan you would wet yourself to discover just how much their loss will affect all of us -every man woman and child.

                              An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after 50 floors says, 'So far so good'!
                              ~ Anonymous

                              Comment


                              • Re: That referendum ...

                                Again Paws you are probably correct on the figures (assuming there's no tax avoidance schemes going on) but you are assuming they are going to leave not just suggesting they are and you are assuming that there will be nobody to replace them and if that happens can you factor in how anybody else might be more beneficial. Personally I get fed up with the amount of spin around today, People will release info to back up their argument and gloss over anything detrimental. Even though I voted leave I am not arguing a case but everything I read I will read with a hint of scepticism because anyone will highlight their own views as the government did with their impartial leaflet before the referendum. Berti the one thing I am truly concerned about is who will control rights and protections in general, I have a feeling that the reformed Europe Cameron wanted would have been based around us being able to opt out anything that didn't suit them and as we can see with Hunts argument with the doctors workers rights come below finances, maybe the doctors should have asked for more help from the EU.

                                Comment

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