Derby Fire - Guilty

http://news.sky.com/story/1072962/de...ty-over-deaths

Now we all feel terribly sorry for those kids that were killed, but what I want to know is......

Why were they found guilty of Manslaughter and not something like Pre-Meditated Murder ?

[dogtired]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Do not know Sapphy, its very sad.

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Cos the laws an ass.. and Capital Punishment isn't practised here (and it should be)

[Eloise01]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Why were they found guilty of Manslaughter and not something like Pre-Meditated Murder ?

Because to convict for murder the prosecution must show intent to kill. Based on what I have read from the trial, the prosecuation did not have evidence of that intent - as I understand the case, they intended to frame the lover for an arson attack and some form of endangerment, whilst they became the heroes of the hour in saving the children, but the fire overtook that intention, as they often do. If you charge someone with murder, the prosecution must be clear that they stand a reasonable chance of securing a conviction for murder. If they fail to do so the guilty party walks free. Literally free. Although we no longer have rules that prevent a retrial (the idea of double jeopardy - that someone should not be tried twice for the same crime) it is much harder to prosecute a crime if someone is not convicted on the first stab, so to speak.

Yes, the law is imperfect, but it is also that imperfect law which stands between the persecution of the innocent too. It cannot be perfect in either - there is no way to write a set of rules that always do the right thing! Sometimes the full weight of the law cannot protect the innocent, and sometimes it convicts the innocent. It could be a lot worse - and if you think it couldn't, have a look around the world. You don't have to go to despotic third world countries to see the law used as a weapon or to find terrible injustice dressed up as justice.

And I would never support the reintriduction of capital punishment. Whilst I understand the motive to punish and the need for revenge, it is the one conviction that we cannot take back if we get it wrong. I don't particularly find it satisfying as an argument to suggest that the state can kill but it's citizens shouldn't - there's a few too many double standards in there for my comfort. But the clincher for me will always be that we can never be positive that a conviction is right, and one person executed for a crime they didn't commit is wholly unacceptable to me. I doubt I would change my mind if we always knew that the conviction was right and just, but nothing would convince me to support a death penalty if there was any chance of killing a person who didn't commit the crime.

[enaid]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

They will get a good hiding on the inside am sure of that, no matter how they are supposedly protected there will be way.

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

In this case (and many others) the killers will sit merrily in prison,3 meals a day,warm,clothed,,whilst the children they killed will be forgotten in time. There is no doubt they killed them,they deliberately set fire to the house,knowing those children were asleep upstairs.So,,they got it wrong,they didn't MEAN to kill them,was a mistake,,fire got out of hand blah blah....
I can't send them to the gallows because the law won't let me even though they ARE guilty,,and I totally understand your opinion too Eloise and respect it,it just sickens me to the pit of my stomach that the murdering evil scumbags get to live out their natural lifespan.They are of no use to society (probably never were tbh).

[wales01man]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

For once i disagree with Eloise i would support the death penaly or at the very least life means life,philpott and co were charged and now convicted of manslaughter so thats that hopefully the judge will hand out the maximum sentence complete with no remission.Above all lets remember these kids lost there lifes may they rest in peace

[Sapphire]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Thanks for explaining the differences Eloise, but I can't help thinking ok they thought hmmm start a fire, get a bigger house, because that's what they were after allegedly in one paper, but none the less they killed, whether it was intentional or not then lives were lost so in my book that's murder, unless of course in the case of something like a car accident.

[enquirer]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Because to convict for murder the prosecution must show intent to kill.

What happened to foresight of virtual certainty?

I suspect that the increasing preference for manslaughter has more to do with politicians and senior police officers massaging the murder statistics, than legal issues.

[IanM]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

They will not be as protected in prison as much as the powers that be would have you believe. Some of the most despicable convicts have over the years suffered at the hands of their own kind so they will suffer some form of retribution while in prison, GOOD! I cannot believe that any parent would deliberately put their children at risk in any way shape or form for any reason whatsoever, human neutering in some cases is well overdue!

[Kafka]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

As people who have killed children they will need to be segregated in an isolation wing. That alone will be harrowing and they will be in constant fear of violent retribution as already stated. I know a bit about this because I used to be a teacher in a high-security prison and had to go into the isolation wing as they weren't allowed out.

[PlanB]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

I'm too choked by this story to debate the whys and wherefores of the legal situation. God bless Duwayne, John, Jack, Jessie, Jade and Jayden :rip:

May your parents rot in hell.

[Inca]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Nothing that happens to them in prison will be enough IMO. They will be placed on Section 47(I think thats what it's called,,I'm happy to be corrected),solitary confinement for their own 'safety',and will eventually mix with their own savage kind,,and you,the taxpayer,will fund it.
They will join the list of 'proven murderers'that languish in our prison system..
Peter Sutcliffe....guilty as charged
Dennis Neilson....ditto
Brady/Hindley....ditto (i know she's dead now)
Ian Huntley...........ditto
Maxine Carr........released AND given a new ID (may not have murdered but still has blood on her hands)
Jon Venables......released AND given new ID
Robert Thompson ditto

The list is endless and the latest 3 just 'join the club' it's sickening

[Sapphire]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

The good thing is.............................. the judge is a woman, lets hope she hands down the maximum available.

[Sapphire]

Re: Derby Fire - Guilty

Blimey O'Reilley, she's taking longer to decide what to give them than it takes for me to chose a pair of new shoes....... and a handbag to match.