DAY 14 final day

[EXC]

Re: DAY 14 final day

I want to say thanks to everyone who posted on the OFT test case as it has been a fascinating case. I think early on we saw the punches being thrown. Mr Rabinowitz comes out slugging on the deadly sins and the OFT seem to be doddering and staggering. the bell sounds for the end of the first few rounds of the fight. Then the second wind comes back into the Doctor as he fights back and throws some punches hard into the fray, and then the finale as the banks seems disorientated and as the crowds screams for blood the final bell sounds and is just audable amongst the scrum of lawyers. It is going to the Judge for the decision. The question is that the pundits needs to add up their scorecards. So Exc, you have been there since the beginning, how would you score the fight?
Is it too close to call?

My Prediction from reading the accounts is that the hornets nest of strange languages casting spells on the contest can only be disentangled by a Judge of the highest calibre.

In keeping with the boxing analogy, and for what it's worth, I'd say the OFT are ahead on points.

[Budgie]

Re: DAY 14 final day

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY EXC
But I'm not so sure about the residue theory. Wouldn't the county courts still have to consider the residue for cases no matter what the outcome was?
Wouldn’t it would still be a case of having to translate his findings to historical T&Cs even if the banks win? That's not to say I hope you're right of course!

Residue Theory - In the context in which the Judge used the words residue and residual, ie, as detailed in my earlier post ( PIL notwithstanding - LOL ) I believe he was referring to the cases that might remain in the County Court system after his initial Judgment and then a later ( very quickly, short order, within 1 month ) favourable decision regarding the historical terms. IE Those individual claims that, for whatever reason, couldn't be dealt with by whatever guidance might be offered to the County Courts following his handing down Judgment and subsequent decision regarding the historical terms and conditions.

The Banks in their defence and counterclaim are seeking declarations regarding the irrelevance of UTCCR 1999 and also that the terms are not capable of amounting to penalties under common law. If the Banks are successful then the resulting guidance offered to the County Courts would probably enable County Court Judges to throw out ALL of the claims currently stayed within the County Court system, leaving no residual cases to be dealt with.

If the OFT are successful in both achieving the declaration regarding the relevance of UTCCR 1999 and this decision is also made applicable to historic terms and conditions then the resulting guidance to the County Courts may enable the majority, but not all of the stayed county court claims to be decided favorably by the county courts. There would be quite a large number of cases, being contended purely on unlawful penalty charge arguments under common law, that might require some separate guidance to enable them to be resolved.

Now we could go on for hours covering all of the possible scenarios that may arise, for example the banks could win the UTCCR aspect but lose out on the penalty charge aspect for historical terms. Or the OFT could win the UTCCR argument but lose out on the penalty charge aspect.
The only person who knows what is likely to happen is Justice Smith, but it is interesting to hypothesize and for those of use with stayed bank charge claims there isn’t going to be much else for us to do for the next couple of months.

But my gut feeling, for what it's worth, ( to use EXC's expression ) and purely based on my own interpretation of how the “residue” statement was made by Justice Smith and his accompanying body movements ( combined with those of the Banks QC’s ) would be a judgment reflecting a victorious end result for the OFT and I hope I’m right too.

[TANZARELLI]

Re: DAY 14 final day

a BIG thanks to EXC for his continued reports from the Test Case. You really have give many of us not able to attend for whatever reason, a fabulous insight into the daily events. It has at times been like we were there.

For that I thank you.

Also thanks to all other members who attended and also commented on things, Tuttsi, Budgie et al.

Lets hope Budgies last post is right.

[TANZARELLI]

Re: DAY 14 final day

I agree that this whole case has been about damage limitation and big boys club back scratching. Thats not to say that the result couldn't go either way though strange. I don't see what is wrong with discussing the possibilities in threads like this .

[Amethyst]

Re: DAY 14 final day

Well I'm a bit sad its over (for now)

I am soooooooooo impatient its gonna be a long 6 weeks (or however long no idea means)

[TUTTSI]

Re: DAY 14 final day

Judge mulls bank fees case ruling

Mr Justice Andrew Smith may take months over his judgement

The judge hearing the High Court test case on bank charges said his eventual ruling should help resolve thousands of claims pending in the county courts.
But Mr Justice Andrew Smith, concluding on the 14th day of the hearing, said he had "no idea at all" when he would be able to deliver his judgement.
"I have a great deal of work to do before I make my judgement," he said.
The case has been staged to decide if bank overdraft charges can be regulated by consumer contract legislation.
Frozen claims
While the hearing has focused on existing terms and conditions that banks apply to their current accounts and overdraft charges, thousands of claims for the return of overdraft charges are still on hold in the county courts.
There is every indication that my findings will translate to the historic terms


Mr Justice Andrew Smith


Most of these were originally lodged by bank customers who were complaining about their bank's previous terms and conditions.
Many such claims were frozen last summer when the banks, the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Services Authority, and the judiciary decided that a test case was need to resolve some of the legal issues involved.
Mr Justice Smith said he hoped his eventual judgement would give some guidance to county court judges.
"There is every indication that my findings will translate to the historic terms," he said.
"That could mean a decision on the historic terms in very short order - maybe within a month [of my decision]," he added.
Worried
The prospect of a decision that goes against them has always been worrying to the banks as it might jeopardise about £3.5bn a year that they currently derive from overdraft charges.
In court, several bank barristers expressed unease that Mr Justice Smith's eventual findings might leak out in the time between him circulating a draft ruling to the parties to the case, and handing down his final public decision.
"The key point is to ensure there is no breach of confidentiality on the draft judgement," said Mr Ali Malek for the Abbey bank.
Mr Justice Smith said he was "deeply troubled" by such a scenario.
He then decided that his draft judgement would be sent out only to a "very tight circle" of named lawyers for the OFT, seven banks and the Nationwide building society.
Earlier in the proceedings the barrister for Lloyds TSB, Mr Bankim Thanki QC, had expressed concern that once the judge's decision was known the banks would be inundated with calls from customers asking about their claims. He had asked that the draft judgement be circulated on a Friday to give his bank time to digest it over a weekend and to prepare to respond to its customers. Now, Mr Justice Smith has decided that he will probably give the parties to the case just 24 hours to respond to any typographical or factual errors.

[Fendyweather]

Re: DAY 14 final day

Ooooooo eck......................wow, its just the waiting now then. I cannot thank everybody enough who has reported on all of this. This thread has been brilliant. Informative, fair, truthful, factual, and above all, VERY VERY HELPFUL TO us less in the know about such events in keeping us all up to speed on what was happening with the case. Every legal beagle is and has been invaluable to us all during this process. THANK YOU ALL, from the bottom of my iccle heart....................... Fendy xx

[Bantambec]

Re: DAY 14 final day

hold a ‘’discrete hearing’’.

still time for the the banks to make an offer then!

Anyway I'd like to reiterate the thanks to all members reporting on this momentous case. Fingers crossed for the outcome we are all fighting for

[Nattie]

Re: DAY 14 final day

The answer is no to a deal being done. The time for a deal to be done was prior to the beginning of the case. There are indications that the banks think they have lost. One of the banks, it is reported, has made an offer to a claimant.
With cases such as these the defendants and claimants will have knowledge of the decision in advance. The Judge will give that decision on a Monday and the banks will have the judgement on a Friday. Likelyhood is as late as the end of March.....but it could be longer due to the mountain of evidence.

[theGobbyOne]

Re: DAY 14 final day

Thanks guys especially EXC you have certainly kept us all up to date....................once again THANKS xx

[Celestine]

Re: DAY 14 final day

The answer is no to a deal being done. The time for a deal to be done was prior to the beginning of the case. There are indications that the banks think they have lost. One of the banks, it is reported, has made an offer to a claimant.

An interesting point. I wonder if we will see any sign of a trend of partial offers if the banks think they are going to lose.

[Nattie]

Re: DAY 14 final day

My understanding was it was a case at court and full charges and interest were offered(that is my understanding).

[TANZARELLI]

Re: DAY 14 final day

My understanding was it was a case at court and full charges and interest were offered(that is my understanding).

With confidentiality and accepting f&f settlement and agreeing to forget any future claims against the bank.

[Budgie]

Re: DAY 14 final day

There are indications that the banks think they have lost. One of the banks, it is reported, has made an offer to a claimant.

If anyone has any additional information could they please post it here or PM me.
This, if true is important news.

Also, any idea what type of interest, statutory or compound ?

Budgie

[scottishlass]

Re: DAY 14 final day

Hi Budgie,

It has since been found out it was a credit card and not a bank account.