• Welcome to the LegalBeagles Consumer and Legal Forum.
    Please Register to get the most out of the forum. Registration is free and only needs a username and email address.
    REGISTER
    Please do not post your full name, reference numbers or any identifiable details on the forum.

DAY 14 final day

Collapse
Loading...
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • DAY 14 final day

    The author kindly requests that If you would like to re-post this account of the test case elsewhere, please ask me first.
    EXC





    Day 14 final day


    Justice Andrew Smith began by addressing the documents left on his desk by the various parties and in particular one by the FSA.

    Although he didn’t reveal the contents of it, the document appeared to relate to the decision by the judge not to take historical terms and conditions into account during the hearing. The judge took great exception to the FSA’s view this was because the court didn’t have enough time to include anything other than current T&Cs.

    The judge reminded the FSA that he had indeed offered to make time available but the issue was simply ‘’unmanageable’’ to consider and that historical T&Cs were not part of the preliminary issues. He said, referring to the FSA, ‘’it is unfortunate that this has been distorted’’ and ‘’frankly I don’t think it should be put in any public document’’. The FSA’s legal representative stood up and meekly offered an apology for her ‘’misunderstanding’’.

    Mr Vos for Nationwide began his reply saying that the charges and interest were in exchange for both a package of services and ‘’obviously and naturally the price for an overdraft’’. He said that Nationwide’s view that their contracts change when a customer goes from credit to debit ‘’had not been responded to by the OFT’’. He countered the OFT’s contention that contracts should be judged in the view of a typical consumer by saying that there were 2 types of typical consumer, ‘’a credit consumer and a debit consumer’’. The judge suggested that for a customer who regularly goes in to debit before pay day, changing his contract monthly ‘’may be pushing it too far’’ when they ‘’just crossed the debit line’’.

    On the subject of the order in which same day payments are processed Vos said that many incoming payments were ‘’outside the banks control’’. He said that the bank have complete discretion as to the order payments processed and the judge asked him what he thought of Brian Doctor’s argument that banking law procedure indicated that the smallest payment should be processed first. Vos conceded ‘’there is some authority on that.’’

    Vos claimed that the OFT had accepted that payment instructions were not deemed requests but the judge said that ‘’when one charge triggers another, we move closer in to the world of deeming’’. All Vos could say was ‘’I don’t make any comment on that’’.

    The judge asked him if the order of payments were ‘’too complicated to state in the contract?’’ Vos said he’d prefer to use ‘’too confusing’’ but Nationwide’s contracts did give some clear guidance. ‘’Yes but not within a day’’ said the judge.

    Brian Doctor covered much of the same ground as before. He spoke on the ‘seven uncertaities’ and the judge seemed to disagree with several of his points.

    Doctor said that some of the banks T&Cs were contradictory in saying that the balance of the account would be taken judged at the time when payment instructions were considered but that expected incoming payments ‘may’ be taken into account and making it difficult for the customer to know what balance was being considered. He quoted Nationwide’s contract that stated internal transfers made before 5pm would be credited to the account but made no mention of external credits but the judge said that if no obligation was in the contract, what actually happens is irrelevant.

    At 10.30 sharp the judge thanked everyone and got up to leave for the last time. But before he could straighten his back the bank’s QCs piled in with questions about his judgement. Robin Dicker popped the big question of when the judge expected to reach his judgement., ‘’I have no idea at all’’ the judge said.

    Malek then said that as the case had attracted such interest, how would the judge manage the risk of a breech of confidentiality between giving his written summary and handing down his judgement and said that even body language could give the game away. Justice Smith said he understood the potential seriousness of a leak and would be considering restricting his summary to 2 counsel per party but Brian Doctor protested at the imbalance of 16 members of the defence versus 2 of the OFT and the judge said he would consider it. Earlier Thanki had asked the judge for more time between his written summary and the judgement so the banks could prepare for the inevitable deluge of calls on the status of claims.

    The judge suggested that in consideration of his judgement, it may be that additional information and clarification could be required from both parties and rather than doing this in writing it may be sensible to hold a ‘’discrete hearing’’.

    The banks also wanted to know about how his decision on the current terms and conditions would effect historical T&Cs which were largely the subject of current litigation. Justice Smith said that at this stage there was ‘’every indication that my findings on current T&Cs would translate to many historical contracts in very short order, possibly within a month’’. This meant that the principles he reaches on current T&Cs could be applied to most historical T&Cs by the county courts and presumably this would necessitate the amending particulars of claim and defences that are currently stayed.




    The Seven Deadly Sins of The Eight Deadly Sinners


    These are the 7 issues on plain intelligible language that the OFT has with the banks.

    1. The qualifying of ’available funds’.
    2. The qualifying time of ‘available funds’.
    3. The order in which payments are processed.
    4. The constitution of a ’deemed request’.
    5. Uncertainties of the outcome of a ‘deemed request’.
    6. The uncertainty of the scope of the relevant charges.
    7. The uncertainty of the enforcement of the relevant charges.

    It was notable that the banks somehow managed to grasp the concept of plain intelligible language during the course of the hearing on the very issues of PI L itself - even though this didn’t seem to apply to their terms and conditions. For the first few days it was ‘the seven deadly sins’, midway through the case it changed to ‘the seven ambiguities’ and at the end of the hearing it was referred to as ‘the seven uncertainties’ which is what the OFT called it in the first place.

    It was also interesting to note the different terms each bank used for ‘unauthorised overdraft’. Depending on the bank it was ‘unplanned overdraft’, ‘instant overdraft’, ‘unarranged overdraft’ or simply good old fashioned ‘unauthorised overdraft’ which became the standard term used by all the banks, the OFT and the judge during the hearing. Though I can’t help thinking that the term ‘unauthorised’ doesn’t sit too comfortably with the banks pleadings that their charges are for the consideration and inevitable authorisation for an overdraft that is then classified as ‘unauthorised’.
    Last edited by EXC; 8th February 2008, 15:55:PM.

  • #2
    Re: DAY 14 final day

    A big thank you EXC, Budgie and Tuttsi (sorry I missed you off) and anybody I have left out for giving your time, to be there and keeping us well informed as to the daily events. I will buy you all a pint if we ever meet.

    Best wishes,
    Hod..Liam...
    Last edited by Happyolddog; 9th February 2008, 09:48:AM.
    Borrow money from a pessimist -- they don't expect it back.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: DAY 14 final day

      Excs- big thanks for everything! Well done, very helpful to us all.

      Given your attendance and knowledge, what is your impression as to how the case might go?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: DAY 14 final day

        I would like to thank EXC for his excellent and many times amusing coverage of this case.

        He has brought `the man in the street`s` view to so many people here. His daily reports have been one of the most viewed items on Beagles which has also attracted an amazing amount of new members and guests to our site.

        He has given up his time, money and hospitality for the benefit of members on Beagles, Penalty Charges , MSE ,CAG , RUC and many other sites.

        Thank you EXC .

        Additional thanks to our very own Celestine,Tuttsi and Budgie also to Tom Brennan and Ian Pollock for his BBC Reports
        Last edited by Tools; 8th February 2008, 16:58:PM.
        Any opinions I give are my own. Any advice I give is without liability. If you are unsure, please seek qualified legal advice.

        IF WE HAVE HELPED YOU PLEASE CONSIDER UPGRADING TO VIP - click here

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: DAY 14 final day

          Ditto Enaid xx

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: DAY 14 final day

            Thanks

            We will watch the next month with interest

            thanks so much for your detailed reports. I feel much happier now

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: DAY 14 final day

              Hi EXC,

              It was great to meet up with you again today and also to meet Tuttsi at the hearing.

              Extremely accurate and concise summary of today's events, well done.

              Only thing I would add ( as has already been reported by the BBC ) is that there will probably only be 24 hours between the issuing of the Draft Judgment to the selected few of the Banks QC’s and the OFT and the actual handing down of the Judgment. Justice Smith quite positively stated that a Draft judgment will only be issued for the purpose of correction of grammatical errors and typos etc and nothing else. By “nothing else” I took it to mean that he did not intend for his draft judgment to be used for setting up procedures to deal with any “problems” that the judgment may cause.

              Also I would like to expand a bit on what I consider to be quite an important comment by Justice Smith.
              I tried to get this down word for word but it may not be 100% accurate as my shorthand isn’t that good. In fact it’s non existent and I was just trying to write very fast !!!!!

              "The reason I find it appropriate to deal with the current and ermm not the historic terms is that there there may be every likelihood my findings judgment will translate to a significant proportion of the historic terms. This might well lead to a decision on historic terms being made very quickly, short order, maybe within 1 month after handing down.
              We will have to take stock regarding the number of events etc and persons involved ( in county court claims ) and there may be a need for seperate guidance for any residue.."

              The above may of course be interpreted both ways. IE : It could mean that a potential victory for either the OFT or the Banks but surely if the decision were to come down in favour of the Banks there would not be any residue ( residual claims ) to be dealt with in the County Courts. Surely victory for the Banks would effectively put paid to all stayed County Court Claims. I therefore surmise that this statement from Justice Smith ( virtually his last words today ) may be the clearest indication so far of the way things might go.

              PS : Great comments re the seven uncertainties and PIL

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: DAY 14 final day

                Thanks for all the clear and informative reporting.

                jan
                "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well." - Antione de Saint Exupery

                "Always reach for the moon, if you miss you'll end up among the stars"


                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: DAY 14 final day

                  My thanks to you EXC for your "on the spot" coverage, and thanks also to everyone involved in making this flow of information possible, for now my fingers remain crossed so typing is difficult.

                  BB

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: DAY 14 final day

                    This is the link to the BBC written by Chris Warner from Which - who was sitting in front of us to day.

                    http://news.bbc.co.uk:80/1/hi/business/7233581.stm

                    DSxx

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: DAY 14 final day

                      Its all been said before me, so its just a massive thanks for all your hard work in reporting back to us.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: DAY 14 final day

                        Bank charges become a testing case

                        ANALYSIS
                        By Chris Warner
                        Lawyer at Which?



                        After three weeks of hard fought legal argument, Mr Justice Andrew Smith now has to rule on one of the most significant court cases this year.
                        He must decide if the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) can assess whether or not unauthorised overdraft bank charges are fair.
                        The stakes are high, with up to an estimated £3.5bn a year in bank fees at stake and thousands of consumers in the county courts waiting to claim back their charges.
                        The case has been a lesson in subtle legal analysis and a lawyer's ability to dissect a simple sentence.
                        And it is clear from the complexity of the arguments so far that there is not likely to be an early resolution.
                        As the judge admitted at the close of the hearing, he has "a great deal to do" before he can make his judgment available so has "no idea at all" when he might do so.




                        A central issue for the banks to demonstrate is that unauthorised overdraft charges represent the price paid by a customer in exchange for a service provided by the bank.
                        A relatively simple concept, or so you might think.
                        But pick it apart and it is clear there are numerous hidden questions that need to be addressed: What is a service? Wat is a price? When is something in exchange?
                        Does it matter if the customer and the bank have different views on what is being provided and paid for?
                        Does it matter if sometimes the same service is provided for free?
                        The Judge needs to wrestle with each of these, and much more besides.
                        Common sense
                        The OFT has urged the judge to take a common sense approach in order to give full effect to the relevant legislation (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations).

                        The order in which payments will be made can have a significant impact on the charges made, but the contracts don't adequately explain this




                        Artificial distinctions should not be drawn.
                        If you spend £50 on a pair of shoes in a shoe shop, everyone would agree you have asked for and paid for the shoes, rather than for the various "preparatory" services supplied by the shop, such as measuring feet and searching the stockroom.
                        The same logic should apply to unauthorised overdraft charges.
                        You ask for an overdraft, not for the variety of services the banks say you ask for, such as considering the request and processing the payment, and you should be charged accordingly.
                        Also, says the OFT, if the banks are to be protected by the regulations, then the price must be "a real price", and this means that a customer must be able to calculate the cost of using a service.
                        The OFT believes this is not possible on the current wording of the contracts.
                        If the OFT is struggling, how can the average consumer be expected to manage?
                        The banks, of course, disagree.
                        Plain English
                        Even if the banks win on all these points, they have to show the contractual terms in question are in plain intelligible language.
                        Big decisions lie ahead for Mr Justice Andrew Smith


                        Ironically, however, this phrase itself is unclear.
                        Do you, as the banks argue, just look at the words used and, giving them their everyday meaning, see whether a typical consumer could explain what they mean?
                        If you do, the OFT argues that "seven uncertainties" common to each bank's contracts mean consumers would struggle with this test.
                        For example, although a bank "may charge" the customer, the contracts don't explain the basis on which the bank will exercise this discretion.
                        Similarly, the order in which payments will be made can have a significant impact on the charges made, but the contracts don't adequately explain this.
                        The OFT has also argued that the terms cannot be in plain intelligible language if they do not tell the customer all he needs to know about the practical effect of the clause, even if simple words are used.
                        An OFT win on this point would be likely provide far more guidance for each of the pending cases.
                        However, the banks dispute this approach.
                        They argue that the issues are complex and they've done "the best they can" to make the contracts accessible.
                        And they say such an approach would mean complex contracts which could never be written in plain intelligible language.
                        Timing
                        But does this matter?
                        Things may be no clearer for quite some time yet




                        Arguably not - it doesn't mean the terms are automatically unfair; simply that the OFT cannot determine whether or not they are.
                        But there is a big question mark hanging over this last issue and, potentially, some of the other key arguments.
                        Whether the unauthorised overdraft charges are fair needs to be assessed at the time the "contract was concluded", and for much of the case, the parties have assumed this is when the contract was last amended.
                        However, following several questions from the judge, this assumption is now being questioned by the banks.
                        And because it is "too complex and too important" to be dealt with now, it will be looked at in a separate hearing sometime in the next few months.
                        It appears that the issue had just not been considered properly before.
                        This is disappointing given the number of legal minds at work on this case.
                        If this proves the central issue, it's back to the drawing board for some of the arguments made so far.
                        Long wait
                        So what clarity do we now have for those waiting in the wings at the county courts?
                        Precious little at the moment.
                        That is why the judge has indicated that these cases should not be resumed yet.
                        In particular, we have little more clarity on the issue of penalty clauses which is relevant to nearly every case.
                        This point has largely been dealt with in writing rather than by the lawyers in the court because it involves a detailed analysis of each relevant contract.
                        We must wait for the judgment to be provided.
                        As the judge admitted at the close of the hearing, he has "a great deal to do" before he can make his judgment available so has "no idea at all" when he might do so.
                        And with an appeal already being anticipated, things may be no clearer for quite some time yet.

                        The opinions expressed are those of the author and are not held by the BBC unless specifically stated. The material is for general information only and does not constitute investment, tax, legal or other form of advice. You should not rely on this information to make (or refrain from making) any decisions. Always obtain independent, professional advice for your own particular situation.
                        #staysafestayhome

                        Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                        Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: DAY 14 final day

                          Originally posted by Budgie View Post

                          The above may of course be interpreted both ways. IE : It could mean that a potential victory for either the OFT or the Banks but surely if the decision were to come down in favour of the Banks there would not be any residue ( residual claims ) to be dealt with in the County Courts. Surely victory for the Banks would effectively put paid to all stayed County Court Claims. I therefore surmise that this statement from Justice Smith ( virtually his last words today ) may be the clearest indication so far of the way things might go.
                          Hey Budgie

                          Yes I think you must've been right on the 24 hour turn round of the draft judgement rather than my 7 days as the BBC saw it your way too. But I'm not so sure about the residue theory. Wouldn't the county courts still have to consider the residue for cases no matter what the outcome was?
                          Wouln't It would still be a case of having to translate his findings to historical T&Cs even if the banks win? That's not to say I hope you're right of course!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: DAY 14 final day

                            I want to say thanks to everyone who posted on the OFT test case as it has been a fascinating case. I think early on we saw the punches being thrown. Mr Rabinowitz comes out slugging on the deadly sins and the OFT seem to be doddering and staggering. the bell sounds for the end of the first few rounds of the fight. Then the second wind comes back into the Doctor as he fights back and throws some punches hard into the fray, and then the finale as the banks seems disorientated and as the crowds screams for blood the final bell sounds and is just audable amongst the scrum of lawyers. It is going to the Judge for the decision. The question is that the pundits needs to add up their scorecards. So Exc, you have been there since the beginning, how would you score the fight?
                            Is it too close to call?

                            My Prediction from reading the accounts is that the hornets nest of strange languages casting spells on the contest can only be disentangled by a Judge of the highest calibre.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: DAY 14 final day

                              Well done EXC, a great report over the 14 days, Thank you for going and reporting the important points, for those of us that could not make it.
                              Lets hope that at the next LB meet there is a free bar for you.
                              SWOS.:grin::thumb:

                              Comment

                              View our Terms and Conditions

                              LegalBeagles Group uses cookies to enhance your browsing experience and to create a secure and effective website. By using this website, you are consenting to such use.To find out more and learn how to manage cookies please read our Cookie and Privacy Policy.

                              If you would like to opt in, or out, of receiving news and marketing from LegalBeagles Group Ltd you can amend your settings at any time here.


                              If you would like to cancel your registration please Contact Us. We will delete your user details on request, however, any previously posted user content will remain on the site with your username removed and 'Guest' inserted.
                              Working...
                              X