OFT Test Case on Bank Charges ......from House of Lords to Supreme Court

[kev2b3]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

I suppose the government have to show an interest with an election around the corner. I bet the goverment are more worried about the banks losing incase they will need to start bailing them out again. Sorry don't trust them.

[natweststaffmember]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

The government white paper will hardly do anything for maybe 12 months by which time we will have had an election. It's all hot air by a government that will not have to deal with it anyway.

[EXC]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

Sensationalist headline alert:

http://www.lovemoney.com/news/manage...source=1000403

Where have the banks said they have given up ?

It's an unfortunate article based almost exclusively on a couple of CAG posts which were opinion dressed up as fact. In turn the CAG posts were based on the interpretation of a couple of pieces on the beeb website.

Written by numpties, inspired by idiots.

For the average person the test case is difficult enough to understand without it being mis-reported and frankly the BBA coverage has been more credible.

The problem is that people (including the media) believe a lot of what's written on the site and take it as gospel especially when it comes from someone who claims to be a ''lawyer''.

There are organisms living in my pond that are more legally qualified.

[Amethyst]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

OFT v Foxtons - Landmark Judgment 10 July 2009 - Legal Beagles

some nice read overs

[agnes]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

Hi Guys, thanks for all that !! you are just brilliant !! this is being drawn out just as long they possiby can just as predicted . missed you all lately. xx

[EXC]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

I'm still hopeful that judgment will be handed down this month. HoLs Judgments are usually handed down on Thursdays so it could even happen on the last day of the judicial term - 30 July.

Dear Sir

I would like to ask if you expect the judgment in the case of OFT v Abbey National (heard 23-25 June) to be handed down before or after the summer recess on 30 July.

Dear EXC

We are only informed one week in advance as to which judgments will be handed down the following week so unfortunately we do not know at this stage.

Regards

Judicial Office
House of Lords

[Glenn UK]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

I've read it. Wow, so the government is wading in.

The government will never go against the popular vote, especially in an election year.....

Just a thought but if the banks lose ultimately the costs will potentially be significant to them IMHO.

Significant enough to cause them difficulties, possibly shut down the odd bank or two depending on how repayments were structured.

To suggest that the politicians would allow this further embarrassment to happen, not to mention the financial implications for the state to occur is naive.

The popular vote currently isn't that popular from what i can make out. 1 million claims is representative of a smaller fraction of people with many like myself and others on here with multiple claims.

When I speak to others about the bank charges issue I find many who are not or have not been in my position are disinterested at best and hostile at worst.

I think that the banks will ultimately do everything they can to mitigate their losses and whilst I have disagreed with the route by which this could be achieved I think it is clear the banks do not want to pay a penny more than they have to.

If this means destroying data, arguing at the ECJ, etc, etc, then this is what will happen.

I thank those who have taken so much time and effort to report the proceedings, most interesting, as for drawing conclusions. My advice don't hold your breath until the fat lady sings!! I know mixing metaphors is bad, but hey who gives a fig?

JMHO

Glenn

[askl]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

As sad as it might be if any banks are shut down (none of the high street banks are that badly effected), we also have to look at the individuals that have been brought to their knees by penalty charges.

I think the popular vote centres around the poverty trap that bank charges, excessive interest rates, mortgage arrear charges and any other charges that feel and look like penalties, cause.

[Glenn UK]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

Sadly, the banks are perceived to be in a position which upon failure significantly affects us all as a nation far more than it affects a relatively small proportion of the UK population affected by penalty charges.

I hope that anyone does not think i am trying to defend the banks behaviour or trivialise the impact the penalty charges have had on individuals. I'm not but as much as i and i know most others posting o n here have been affected we are a minority in the country in the context that most people who get charges don't end up being bankrupted/ chased by bailiffs/etc. The number of people affected in this way may be a large number and it might be a significant minority, but the popular vote is IMHO not with us in the way that seems to be being expressed here.

IMHO however, the impact of the failure of a large bank (are there any truly small ones?) would have an impact far wider than the penalty charges has had on the UK.

Askl suggests none of the high st banks are affected, somehow i don't think that is the case. Depending on how the judgement is dealt with (assuming of course the banks appeal is rejected) the impact of this case could be to open the gates to claims for unjust enrichment/account of profits (or whatever the best legal term for the principle is) which would affect all banks as the sums of money reclaimable would be related to what the banks have historically made. They could then potentially be stripped of money they made as a result of those charges.

As i have stated elsewhere, the numbers do start to stack up quite quickly when you consider that the top 4 city banks were estimated to have made something like 450M in one year from charges a few years ago. Over 6 yeas that becomes 2.7bn for 4 banks which would theoretically become payable in cash for 4 banks.

Oh and of course if that proves to be the case the CC charges issues will be opened again with similar claims no doubt arising.

Of course i may have misunderstood the issues and the details in terms of the potential sums involved.

If the repayment of charges is somehow limited to only charges then the impact wont be that great for any of them i suspect.

I have no love for the banks or bankers who have done this to us, however, be pragmatic about the situation, the issue is potentially a lot larger than it might seem at 1st glance.

JMHO

Glenn

[crashbandicoot]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

I hear what you're saying Glenn. It is obvious that many assumptions will/and have been made over this case, and as you say, I think the best thing to do is to wait until it is finalised. I know from all the excellent reporting that I have been reading about on here, that some days I've been feeling really positive, and on others I'm thinking which way will this go.

Fingers crossed the outcome is positive for the majority of us, but I too can see the banks wriggling out of this mess and limiting their losses as best as they can.

For now, we wait!

Crash

[Guest]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

If the banks can find the money to pay for billions of pounds of bonuses, then I fail to see why they should not repay fees and charges that they were never entitled to take in the first place - provided that the courts rule that way.

[WendyB]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

if the banks lose, then no doubt they will manage to spin it so that it's us, the people who are (quite rightly) refunded, who get the balme for the banks losing money, going down the pan, being bailed out by the governamnet and ultimateley the taxpayer. i.e it will be our own fault when taxes go up to pay for the banking catastrophe becuase we were greedy enough to want our own money back.

Thats why I think that there will be some sort of middle ground, ie we can get the charges back but not the interest thereon, no unjust enrichment claims etc. I'm not a legal expert but that'sjust what I think, no idea of what will actually happen in reality though. Also think that there would (and probably should) somehow still only be refunds for those who ask for them, not just automatic straight across the board. There must be some people out there who agree with the charging structure/dont feel they've been unfairly charged/are so rich they've never been charged/or don't care one way or the other. These are probably a minority but would keep the overall cost to the banks down wouldn't they?

But hopefully it will all come out in the wash (soon!) and no doubt then we'll have all sorts of ramifications to discuss.....

[Glenn UK]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

Cetelco

i am not suggesting they should not pay, only that there is a potential issue in respect of the amount they may have to pay if the ruling opens the way for account of profits/unjust enrichment arguments to succeed.

I am only highlighting the fact that far from being a simple case about justice or legal argument, the political and financial issues are also relevant from a state perspective. The HoL may make their judgement and ignore all these issues, there has been argument put forward that in fact the HoL may take account of the ramifications of their judgement on UK PLC.

I'm sorry if it is not what people want to hear, but i do believe that these issues are real and there is no reason for them not to be discussed.

If i have offended anyone sorry, its not my intent.

[righty]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

I have to say this but if the banks lose this government will simply move the goalposts in much the same way as they did when they lost in Wilson HoL. Wilson was lost to them because of S127 of the CCA so their solution so that lenders could not be punished was simply to revoke it from the 2006 CCA. The most significant piece of legislation that protected consumers from the abuse of the lenders & this labour government ratted out their core supporters by getting rid urged on by their friends in the city
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Glenn you bored ............. again

[Glenn UK]

Re: TODAY at the House of Lords - OFT v Banks latest news

moi bored??? possibly, I may have the issues all wrong, somehow i think that if/when the Banks lose their losses will be mitigated by either the decision and how its formed or a change in the law to protect them.

i guess I'm just cynical about the whole process , the objectives and the probable outcome.