The EU referendum

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

I think that the old labour and new labour are about as similar as the Tories of Ted Heath and the Tories of Cameron. ( Well Thatcher maybe). On an economic front the old Tories embraced Keynesianism just as much as Labour and were both possibly Social Democrats where welfare was concerned. This obviously changed with Thatcher who ditched Keynesian monetary policy for monetarism and took what some call a new right and others a neo liberal approach to the welfare state. Labour felt they had to lurch to the right to become New Labour who will maybe were more left of centre with social policy remained very much in the monetarist financial policy camp.

I disagree about the what openlaw regards as just political rhetoric , if it is just rhetoric , why are so many of our Nurses from Europe, the Leicester NHS trusts did a recruitment drive in Portugal . Why is it that so many people who work in Aldi/Poundland/ McDonalds etc are European, this is not rhetoric it is fact.

I still believe that when many people talk about immigration they are using it to hide behind what they really mean which is racism/Islamophobia i.e we don't want those people with a different coloured skin in our country

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Yes that is possible but it is not a reason to vote out now. I think that some people are gambling on the above scenario which is wrong and not what we are being asked to do

No, Islamophobia/ racism has nothing to do with the genuine concern that people are generally concerned about EU migrants taking their jobs. This is the reason why the Maastricht Treaty came about to keep wages down by encouraging migration from especially poorer EU countries. Unless you're in those jobs and affected by such Europeans your view is just equally out of touch as the out of touch politicians.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

polity(people) Careful now!
Even if the UK suddenly realised leaving was a mistake and held another expensive referendum and had long winded debates what, in the name of reason, makes us so arrogant as to believe the EU would be falling over themselves to have us return. OK it would take a few years to actually, formally leave and maybe we would change our minds within that time but we would simply look like petulant children. Surely this proud nation is better than that! Oh and anyway once we leave we leave and we would not be able to ‘half leave’ or ‘pick and choose’ those aspects we like without committing to the responsibilities regardless of the questionable interpretations we have seen of the agreements.
The EU has it's faults but the benefits override them.
On the bright side we will neither be growing or cutting asparagus but, sure, we won’t be able to afford it anyway! Well I say we but it seems my OH’s job will be abroad and I will be going with him.
Honestly, I truly believe if we vote to leave we will see the biggest exodus of labour since Moses said ‘right lads, were off’.

People have to it too good in England to even leave the UK, to go to other countries where the economy is uncertain. Spain is still in a mess, Greece is in a mess. Nah I cannot see an exodus at all. If they go, perhaps it will free lots of property space up. If they go, they should stop them coming back, too.

[Guest]

Re: The EU referendum

Well clearly this is a very heated debate and we have differing opinions. I think you are deluded if you think that racism has nothing to do with many peoples concerns. I also think you are deluded if you think that it is even european immigration that is keeping wages down when we had all that noise made by the last increase in the minimum wage and sports direct were paying people below the minimum wage. It is not immigration that is depressing wages, it is greed. Take out all the EU migrants and we would still have people refusing to work .

I would though ask, what is the UK coming to when an MP is shot and stabbed by an idiot shouting Britain first . I hope she recovers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Well clearly this is a very heated debate and we have differing opinions. I think you are deluded if you think that racism has nothing to do with many peoples concerns. I also think you are deluded if you think that it is even european immigration that is keeping wages down when we had all that noise made by the last increase in the minimum wage and sports direct were paying people below the minimum wage. It is not immigration that is depressing wages, it is greed. Take out all the EU migrants and we would still have people refusing to work .

I would though ask, what is the UK coming to when an MP is shot and stabbed by an idiot shouting Britain first . I hope she recovers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304

Well, you're deluded if you think the Maastricht Treaty was not about controlling wages for indigenous populations. Racism has nothing to do with the economy any more that gay rights has to do with the economy in these contexts. Using the racism card in my view is unfair, it's just a political device to remove the real concerns of EU migration on to those who are affected by migration who raise the very arguments. The media is so powerful and alert to racism and getting more like the USA each passing day, that everything has to be so politically correct. It's outrageous. As for the Pro European Union politicians they love bringing out the racist card as it saves confronting the genuine concerns. In my view it just Machiavellian tactics no more and no less. Were it not for migration ie the 1992 Maastricht Treaty in the UK it's my view wages would certainly be higher than they are now. Greed and EU migration go together in that greedy employers enjoy paying employees as little as possible. If the law today was £3 minimum wage per hour employers am guessing many employers wouldn't have a problem with it. Before the reforms of education in 1998 thereabouts, security personnel were getting below £3 per hour, teachers in further education didn't need a degree to teach, nurses never needed a degree to work in hospitals etc. Then the industries were so-called professionalised...lots of NVQs...lots of university, and now wages have been massively bumped up. In the 1800s the farming communities in the UK were being told to let their children get an education so then they can come home and look after the family business. This was just political rhetoric to change the economy. Today's events are no different. You're deluded if you can't see this. 'Every adult has a right to an education'....they couldn't give a crap about adults' education....they just wanted to change the economy!

[des8]

Re: The EU referendum

One aspect of the whole debate which hasn't even been mentioned is what is better for Europe, Britain in or out?
Both sides are selfishly looking at what's best for us "litttle Englanders" (apologies to rest of UK but all 4 countries are included!)
In or out, we cannot ignore Europe. We need Europe to be successful
Should we not take into account the affect our decision will have on Europe?

Perhaps I spent too much time on the continent!

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

One aspect of the whole debate which hasn't even been mentioned is what is better for Europe, Britain in or out?
Both sides are selfishly looking at what's best for us "litttle Englanders" (apologies to rest of UK but all 4 countries are included!)
In or out, we cannot ignore Europe. We need Europe to be successful
Should we not take into account the affect our decision will have on Europe?

Perhaps I spent too much time on the continent!

There is Western Europe and Eastern Europe. The European Union entails richer countries like Germany, the UK, and poorer countries such as Poland and Romania etc. The EU is a massive benefit to its poorer countries as they can transfer: Freedom of movement, to said richer countries; but beneficially to transferring UK companies: Freedom of Goods/ Services to poorer countries, paying the local rate for Poland or Romania rather than the local rate of the UK's minimum wage.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

We are the second largest contributor to the EU so I would imagine they do not want us to go as we help support the whole shooting match but they will not allow us to pull that contribution out but still enjoy shoving our goods onto their markets without charging us duty -i.e.they will have to recoup that money one way or the other. Then we will slap duty on their stuff coming in , (natch ) so we all lose.
Oh by the way, although English is very well spoken in many European countries Ireland seems an interesting option for those companies who want an English speaking base within the free trading countries. So if you think the weather is rubbish here…….

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

Well clearly this is a very heated debate and we have differing opinions. I think you are deluded if you think that racism has nothing to do with many peoples concerns. I also think you are deluded if you think that it is even european immigration that is keeping wages down when we had all that noise made by the last increase in the minimum wage and sports direct were paying people below the minimum wage. It is not immigration that is depressing wages, it is greed. Take out all the EU migrants and we would still have people refusing to work .

I would though ask, what is the UK coming to when an MP is shot and stabbed by an idiot shouting Britain first . I hope she recovers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304

I am afraid she has died -RIP Absolutely shocking

[Fred]

Re: The EU referendum

We are a small country that lots of overseas human beings want to be part of & that is down to our already multicultural society & even the possibility of speaking a very populous language.

What possible argument could we have when, the British are, in some way, in every country in the world. Why should we not feel a little flattered by the desire for immigration as opposed to being frightened of it.

We are all human beings, as a nation of (rather wealthy) reasonable & fair people, we, have to do our bit to help others.

We need to aim for being the biggest economy in the EU not detract from it, I want us to be be the biggest contributor not the smallest because that would mean success.

We need others to come up to our level, not for the UK to drop towards theirs.

Real easy for me, I know which way I am voting & it is most certainly based on the future as opposed to the past.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

We are a small country that lots of overseas human beings want to be part of & that is down to our already multicultural society & even the possibility of speaking a very populous language.

What possible argument could we have when, the British are, in some way, in every country in the world. Why should we not feel a little flattered by the desire for immigration as opposed to being frightened of it.

We are all human beings, as a nation of (rather wealthy) reasonable & fair people, we, have to do our bit to help others.

We need to aim for being the biggest economy in the EU not detract from it, I want us to be be the biggest contributor not the smallest because that would mean success.

We need others to come up to our level, not for the UK to drop towards theirs.

Real easy for me, I know which way I am voting & it is most certainly based on the future as opposed to the past.

:clap2::clap2::clap2: Well said.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

Just discovered that the number of British people who applied for Rep Of Ireland passports increased by 25% in April/May.

Things are surely in a bad way if Ireland -who for centuries only seemed to export people -is suddenly the land of milk and honey!

[charitynjw]

Re: The EU referendum

Just discovered that the number of British people who applied for Rep Of Ireland passports increased by 25% in April/May.

Things are surely in a bad way if Ireland -who for centuries only seemed to export people -is suddenly the land of milk and honey!

& potatos

[Celestine]

Re: The EU referendum


UNCATEGORIZED
A Day of Infamy

Alex Massie

Alex Massie
16 June 2016
6:17 PM









Events have a multiplier effect. And when they come in bunches the effect can be overpowering. This was already a sad and demeaning day, even before we heard the ghastly news a Labour MP, Jo Cox, had been murdered outside her constituency surgery in Yorkshire.
Politics is, figuratively speaking, a contact sport. It is a hard business because it is an important business. It matters and it matters even more when the stakes are so very high. But just as class will out at the highest level in sport, when the stakes are the very greatest and everything seems to be on the line, so character reveals itself in politics too. Even, especially, when it really counts.
A referendum is one of those moments when it counts. There is no do-over, no consoling thought in defeat that, at least, there’s always next season. No, defeat is permanent and for keeps. That’s why a referendum is so much uglier than a general election. The ‘wrong’ people often win an election but their victory is only – and always – temporary. There will be another day, another time. An election is a negotiation; a referendum is a judgement with no court of appeal. So character reveals itself. The poster unveiled by Nigel Farage this morning marked a new low, even for him.
The mask – the pawky, gin o’clock, you know what I mean, mask – didn’t slip because there was no mask at all. BREAKING POINT, it screamed above a queue of dusky-hued refugees waiting to cross a border. The message was not very subtle: Vote Leave, Britain, or be over-run by brown people. Take control. Take back our country. You know what I mean, don’t you: If you want a Turk – or a Syrian – for a neighbour, vote Remain. Simple. Common sense. Innit?
And then this afternoon, a 42 year old member of parliament, who happens – and this may prove to have been more than a coincidence – to have been an MP who lobbied for Britain to do more to assist the desperate people fleeing Syria’s charnel house, was shot and stabbed and murdered.
Events have a multiplier effect.


It’s not Nigel Farage’s fault Jo Cox is dead. It’s not Boris Johnson’s fault either. Nor is it the fault of Michael Gove or Dan Hannan or anyone else campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union. Most of these people (there is a glaring exception), like most of the people who will vote Leave next week, are decent and honourable people making an argument they sincerely (there may be one exception to this, too) believe is in the best interests of the United Kingdom. They are not responsible for Jo Cox’s death. The murderer is the only person responsible for that.
Perhaps initial suggestions the murderer had ties to the far-right will be confirmed; perhaps they will not. It may be that eye-witness reports he shouted ‘Britain First’ as he attacked Jo Cox will prove as unreliable as such reports often are. It could be there was no political motivation for this apparently senseless murder. That would be easier. We wouldn’t have to ask quite so many awkward questions if that proves to be the case. It would just – a relative term – be another deranged act perpetrated by a suspect with, we think, a long history of mental illness.
We hope, because doing so offers a shred of comfort even in horrid moments, that he was just a ‘lone wolf’ or a lunatic acting alone. We hope so because hoping that makes it easier to say, once the shock has worn off, that this was a singular event of the sort that cannot be predicted. Sometimes terrible things happen.
Well, so they do. But we know that even lone lunatics don’t live in a bubble. They are influenced by outside events. That’s why, when there is an act of Islamist terrorism, we quite rightly want to know if it was, implicitly or explicitly, encouraged by other actors. We do not believe – at least we should not – in collective guilt or punishment but we do want to know, with reason, whether an individual assassin was inspired by ideology or religion or hate-speech or any of a hundred other possible motivating factors. We do not hold all muslims accountable for the violence carried out in the name of their prophet but nor can we avoid the ugly, unpalatable, truth that, as far as the perpetrator is concerned, he (it is almost always he) is acting in the service of his view of his religion. He has a cause, no matter how warped it may be. And so we ask who influenced him? We ask, how did it come to this?
So, no, Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But they are responsible for the manner in which they have pressed their argument. They weren’t to know something like this was going to happen, of course, and they will be just as shocked and horrified by it as anyone else.
But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’
When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.
Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.
We can’t control the weather but, in politics, we can control the climate in which the weather happens. That’s on us, all of us, whatever side of any given argument we happen to be. Today, it feels like we’ve done something terrible to that climate.
Sad doesn’t begin to cover it. This is worse, much worse, than just sad. This is a day of infamy, a day in which we should all feel angry and ashamed. Because if you don’t feel a little ashamed – if you don’t feel sick, right now, wherever you are reading this – then something’s gone wrong with you somewhere.
Jo Cox was, by all accounts, a fine parliamentarian and a fine woman. She has been taken from her family and her constituents but her death strips something from all of us as well. I cannot recall ever feeling worse about this country and its politics than is the case right now.
Events have a multiplier effect. So do feelings.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

Now that's what I call an article! It may be some time before we know the full back story but this is such a heart breaker.


I was flicking about to see what other online debates there were in an attempt to get a mood/points of concerns on this EU ref. and can I just say….
WE ARE SO VERY HIGH BROW! Some sites -one very similar to this -vary between unintelligible bear pits to xenophobic rants to ill informed drivel.
Now I may not agree with all the points made but I absolutely respect your opinions and I feel it is my privilege to be able to debate this topic with such eloquent, intelligent people.
Hats off to you all.:yo:

[enaid]

Re: The EU referendum

Not long to go now, in, out, shake yer brain about.

Another question, our 'exports' 80% of which are service based and most of that financial institutes etc.
I for one think most of them are corrupt or at the very least able to rip us off with no real come back or punishment how will that be affected in or out seeing as 'trade' and a growing economy is all the ins can spout about.

Also on the strawberry picking, it's said there are no 'locals' to do the job meaning not enough population imho so where do the eu workers live? if accommodation is provided the wage is reduced to cover the cost so even if on the minimum wage they would probably not earn enough to pay tax and NI even if they do and if the work is seasonal would they then get a tax rebate when they leave?