The EU referendum

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

But the producers pay corporate tax and produce a food product. This product is transported and sold. It then goes onto plates or into other products. If the product was not harvested then no one in the chain would be employed or pay either corporate or personal tax. We would also have to import the products which would cost us more and would have the ‘carbon footprint’ police swooning.
So if we cannot find locals to do the job we must allow migrant workers to do it although I do think some of the growers could try a little harder to employ UK nationals and local people.
BTW Enaid -stop saying you have simple knowledge, you are one of the smartest people on here!

[Kati]

Re: The EU referendum

This is from a Pro-Leave writer:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/h...itish-farmers/

the Brexit debate is leaving our True Blue farmers deeply conflicted. On the one hand, without EU subsidies, many of them would go out of business. On the other, their Tory instincts tell them that subsidies are a socialist idea, the opposite of free trade, and therefore plain wrong.

It’s not even the farmers’ fault that they need subsidies to survive — it’s the fault of Britain’s supermarkets, which fight for market share by keeping food prices artificially low. How do they manage that? They simply pass on the cost to the farmers. A litre of milk, for example, costs a farmer about 30p to produce, but the supermarkets pay him (it’s usually a him) an average of 23p. This is why the number of dairy farmers has halved in the past decade, from 20,000 to 10,000, and why 2,000 more are expected to go bust this year.

but even so, you can see how/why the EU subsidy helps the farmer. A dairy farmer I know regularly says that he wouldn't be able to stay in business without them ... and his herd is pretty small (150-200 cattle at a time).

[enaid]

Re: The EU referendum

but even so, you can see how/why the EU subsidy helps the farmer. A dairy farmer I know regularly says that he wouldn't be able to stay in business without them ... and his herd is pretty small (150-200 cattle at a time).

We import tonnes of milk form the EU, why?

I am willing to pay a little more for milk and dairy if I knew it helped the farmers here.
You would argue it's imported because it's cheaper, all well and good for the consumer, but look at the bigger picture. When it actually puts farmers out of work and it affects the country side and all the small local communities, imho that is a very very false economy.

[Amethyst]

Re: The EU referendum

Milk - http://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/market-info.../#.V2J76jWJXvk

[des8]

Re: The EU referendum

... and contrary to most peoples' belief legal migrant workers will be paying NIC if they are working a 40 hour week on minimum wage.
So the EU worker is contributing to the benefits which the brits are claiming.

[Guest]

Re: The EU referendum

Milk is cheaper now that it has been for years, 4 pints for £1 in many supermarkets, I think it is less in Aldi

You may be willing to pay a little more, you can do that by having it delivered if you can find a milkman.

From what I have seen, EU migrants do many jobs that locals will not do because they believe it is beneath them and refuse to get out of bed for the minimum wage. In my experience as well they work harder than some locals which will be why they are hired

I make an exception for the person who called me today, shouted at me as I said goodbye then phoned me back and asked if I was mentally ill. I doubt he was phoning from the UK though

- - - Updated - - -

The post by Stu 82 , I saw almost exactly the same post on consumeractiongroup forum written by some, frankly stupid old person who hasn't git a clue.

[Sparkie1723]

Re: The EU referendum

Taken off Berti's post
The post by Stu 82 , I saw almost exactly the same post on consumeractiongroup forum written by some, frankly stupid old person who hasn't git a clue.

Wasn't me Berti honest

Rambling old Git Sparkie

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

This is the big problem -none of us want to see the farmer unfairly squeezed but none of us want, or can pay more for our food, especially the basics. I remember years ago I was involved in a debate about why small Columbian farmers could not survive on what they earned from producing coffee so they supplied the drug barons instead. It is easy for us to condemn when we see the effect class A drugs have on people in the western world but we would go ballistic if we had to pay more for our coffee.
We also have to take our hats off to the big supermarkets who got together to agree not to buy milk from abroad.
If we leave then despite what the campaigners say, there will be no control over basic food prices. We do produce a lot of basics but we do rely on Europe for many manufactured food stuffs. When the government sees they could make money buy imposing a duty on food imports it will be slapped on. Then why would the EU take our grain, dairy or meat without imposing a levy on prices?
Hey, wonder what will happen to Lidl and Aldi?
Anyone catch (he he) the fishing skirmish on yesterdays news? Well, fishing restrictions are there for two reasons -1 to protect over fished areas where stock has fallen and 2, to give all countries a fair slice of the fruitful areas. Now we all know rogue trawlers from the continent have made sneak visits to our areas but how will we fight this if we have no say in Europe and no assistance from European regulators?
Leaving the EU will not replenish depleted fish stock nor make the seas bigger!

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

That's what we are told eu workers do the jobs we won't do

We are told EU workers will do the jobs UK citizens won't do by out of touch politicians it's called political rhetoric. The EU was originally a Tory political drive then New Labour later in the political scene embraced its values. However, would a former Labour have embraced the EU business 'jobs for the boys' entity, is the question. There is no such thing as an old Labour now, why because the world changed and so politics follows these changes. What is a New Labour though is another question, it means the former values have been sacrificed for social and cultural, and of course business capital, ie the Etons and the Oxbridge elites of this world produce Conservative, Labour et al MPs now. So it could be said that politics and EU politics being no exception, are led by the dominants in society - ergo their (the dominant society's) view of the world is one politically and sociologically constructed and shaped.

There is simply more to this 'they'll do the jobs you won't do though just like there's far more to this EU debate albeit many seem to view the debate simplistically as though it were a benevolent idea without realising that we don't really have rights or choices except those particular politics that the dominant driving forces create for us. In my view it's about control, government fat cats, all doing nicely thank you very much to the EU gravy train machine.

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

The average person, the majority of people in fact, will simply be interested in how this will effect them and will neither have the time nor the inclination to philosophise on the matter. If Socrates is spinning in his grave so be it but what matters to most of us is; will our standard of living be better or worse? Now if it is better and someone at the top gets fatter most of us are OK with that. History has shown us that even communist utopia had their fat cats.
As for old labour -Do you mean the labour of Kinnock? As in Neil Kinnock, Firmly in the ‘stay camp Kinnock? Ex vice president of the EU commission Kinnock?
There are certain issues that cross the party divide and this is one of them. Going against the opposition for the sake of drawing a political line in the sand is ridiculous when the result will effect us all so profoundly.
The suits on TV may have gone to Eaton but they have to come, cap in hand, to us at election time when they want a job. If we do not use our right to vote we can hardly complain about the result but we all have the freedom to become leaders of industry or members of parliament and many, many of those in power do not come from privileged back grounds.
Next Thursday we will be given a choice. The decision we, the ordinary men and women make will effect everyone from the minimum wage earners cutting asparagus right up to the big boys manipulating 8+ figure budgets. It will effect the Prime Minister and the boy who delivers his paper. It will not just effect the UK but have a profound effect on all members of the EU and the Republic of Ireland now and for generations.
That, my friend is freedom, power and democracy and I am glad we live in such a society.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

The average person, the majority of people in fact, will simply be interested in how this will effect them and will neither have the time nor the inclination to philosophise on the matter. If Socrates is spinning in his grave so be it but what matters to most of us is; will our standard of living be better or worse? Now if it is better and someone at the top gets fatter most of us are OK with that. History has shown us that even communist utopia had their fat cats.
As for old labour -Do you mean the labour of Kinnock? As in Neil Kinnock, Firmly in the ‘stay camp Kinnock? Ex vice president of the EU commission Kinnock?
There are certain issues that cross the party divide and this is one of them. Going against the opposition for the sake of drawing a political line in the sand is ridiculous when the result will effect us all so profoundly.
The suits on TV may have gone to Eaton but they have to come, cap in hand, to us at election time when they want a job. If we do not use our right to vote we can hardly complain about the result but we all have the freedom to become leaders of industry or members of parliament and many, many of those in power do not come from privileged back grounds.
Next Thursday we will be given a choice. The decision we, the ordinary men and women make will effect everyone from the minimum wage earners cutting asparagus right up to the big boys manipulating 8+ figure budgets. It will effect the Prime Minister and the boy who delivers his paper. It will not just effect the UK but have a profound effect on all members of the EU and the Republic of Ireland now and for generations.
That, my friend is freedom, power and democracy and I am glad we live in such a society.

If the referendum results in an 'out' it doesn't automatically mean we're out of the EU, only Parliament can do that by repealing the European Communities' Act 1972, or any branch of government ignoring the polity (people) using its ancient royal prerogative powers. Parliament after an inevitable debate with the Lords and Commons in terms of a repealing said Act could insist on another referendum with amendments to its relationship with the EU so as to get a yes vote the second time around. So, there could be more than one referendum.

[charitynjw]

Re: The EU referendum

I'll be back, lol!

[Guest]

Re: The EU referendum

I think that the old labour and new labour are about as similar as the Tories of Ted Heath and the Tories of Cameron. ( Well Thatcher maybe). On an economic front the old Tories embraced Keynesianism just as much as Labour and were both possibly Social Democrats where welfare was concerned. This obviously changed with Thatcher who ditched Keynesian monetary policy for monetarism and took what some call a new right and others a neo liberal approach to the welfare state. Labour felt they had to lurch to the right to become New Labour who will maybe were more left of centre with social policy remained very much in the monetarist financial policy camp.

I disagree about the what openlaw regards as just political rhetoric , if it is just rhetoric , why are so many of our Nurses from Europe, the Leicester NHS trusts did a recruitment drive in Portugal . Why is it that so many people who work in Aldi/Poundland/ McDonalds etc are European, this is not rhetoric it is fact.

I still believe that when many people talk about immigration they are using it to hide behind what they really mean which is racism/Islamophobia i.e we don't want those people with a different coloured skin in our country

- - - Updated - - -

If the referendum results in an 'out' it doesn't automatically mean we're out of the EU, only Parliament can do that by repealing the European Communities' Act 1972, or any branch of government ignoring the polity (people) using its ancient royal prerogative powers. Parliament after an inevitable debate with the Lords and Commons in terms of a repealing said Act could insist on another referendum with amendments to its relationship with the EU so as to get a yes vote the second time around. So, there could be more than one referendum.

Yes that is possible but it is not a reason to vote out now. I think that some people are gambling on the above scenario which is wrong and not what we are being asked to do

[charitynjw]

Re: The EU referendum

If Socrates is spinning in his grave so be it

Socrates condemned Sophists.

Therefore, listening to the arguments from both sides, his rpm must be phenomenal!

[PAWS]

Re: The EU referendum

polity(people) Careful now!
Even if the UK suddenly realised leaving was a mistake and held another expensive referendum and had long winded debates what, in the name of reason, makes us so arrogant as to believe the EU would be falling over themselves to have us return. OK it would take a few years to actually, formally leave and maybe we would change our minds within that time but we would simply look like petulant children. Surely this proud nation is better than that! Oh and anyway once we leave we leave and we would not be able to ‘half leave’ or ‘pick and choose’ those aspects we like without committing to the responsibilities regardless of the questionable interpretations we have seen of the agreements.
The EU has it's faults but the benefits override them.
On the bright side we will neither be growing or cutting asparagus but, sure, we won’t be able to afford it anyway! Well I say we but it seems my OH’s job will be abroad and I will be going with him.
Honestly, I truly believe if we vote to leave we will see the biggest exodus of labour since Moses said ‘right lads, were off’.