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BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

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  • Originally posted by KurtCrisco View Post

    Email conversations should be sufficient. Would you be happy to potentially share these? Redacting your personal information before doing so of course?

    I'm happy to guide you through the process of converting these to .PDFs etc. - this is absolutely vital evidence in our fights as it is evidence of BMW FS admitting liability!
    The things is I have evidence as I always email everything and have BMWFS saying these are invoices, the thing is though what exactly can we do about it as they will clearly tell us we owe the money so what's the best possible step knowing our situation?

    The only way forward, as far as I can see, is to call their bluff and take them to court, would you not agree?

    It's now 10 months since I VT'd the car and I can't see how it's not going to continue until something is either paid towards the invoice or they are taken to court, if taking them to court what would the principle reason be, thats these invoices are disputed?

    I've tried contacting the credit agency but they clearly do not care as I've had no response, maybe going to the papers is a way to have this stopped?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dehaw View Post
      KurtCrisco are you any further forward?

      It seems we are both pretty much in the same boat and although I now live in Australia I do have properties in the UK so makes sense to try and resolve this.

      Have you spoken with any solicitors about the best way forward?

      Can we challenge the credit agencies for allowing BMW to do what they are doing without taking this to court?

      Would it be easier to take BMW to court and call their bluff?

      R0b what are your thoughts based on where we are at?

      Thanks, I truly appreciate any help.
      Highly unlikely that you could take this further unless you bring someone else on board such as the media, or if everyone affected refers this to Elizabeth Denham. The only way I see it is to take court action, either BMW will defend it all the way to trial and in which case you have your day in court, otherwise they might try to settle at some point - their starting point will be to defend it. Otherwise I don't think you are going to go anywhere.

      I've started drafting an example letter before action which is loosely based on something I had written to Santander about in relation to collection fees (see attached below). It's not yet complete and needs a little tidying up, but the majority of it is there so you can get a feel of the reasons you would be claiming.
      Attached Files
      Click here to check out my list of templates

      DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dehaw View Post

        The things is I have evidence as I always email everything and have BMWFS saying these are invoices, the thing is though what exactly can we do about it as they will clearly tell us we owe the money so what's the best possible step knowing our situation?

        The only way forward, as far as I can see, is to call their bluff and take them to court, would you not agree?

        It's now 10 months since I VT'd the car and I can't see how it's not going to continue until something is either paid towards the invoice or they are taken to court, if taking them to court what would the principle reason be, thats these invoices are disputed?

        I've tried contacting the credit agency but they clearly do not care as I've had no response, maybe going to the papers is a way to have this stopped?
        Dehaw, I have seen your posts. Apologies for not having come back to you, I haven't been very well at all of late. Probably not helped by the stress induced by these cloth eared idiots at BMW FS.

        I agree with what you're saying but there is risk on both sides with the court route. I've been considering this option for quite some time as you well know, but I simply cannot afford to do this through a private solicitor, nor will anyone insure me for it, because of the aforementioned risk. I'm tempted still to explore the Small Claims Court route, but I'm unsure whether or not this would carry enough clout really.

        As you quite rightly say, BMW FS will carry this on for us both, indefinitely. They won't take us to court, or at least I highly doubt that they will, because they are very aware of the risk in doing so on their side. They'll just keep abusing their powers to report data to Credit Reference Agencies, because they know it's harf for us to combat, and low risk for them. It's a slow burn, bullying tactic that they're hoping will pursuade us to cough up the undue sums.

        Credit Reference Agencies won't help, I've already been down this route. They don't want to get involved in the whole sticky mess frankly.

        Originally posted by R0b View Post

        Highly unlikely that you could take this further unless you bring someone else on board such as the media, or if everyone affected refers this to Elizabeth Denham. The only way I see it is to take court action, either BMW will defend it all the way to trial and in which case you have your day in court, otherwise they might try to settle at some point - their starting point will be to defend it. Otherwise I don't think you are going to go anywhere.

        I've started drafting an example letter before action which is loosely based on something I had written to Santander about in relation to collection fees (see attached below). It's not yet complete and needs a little tidying up, but the majority of it is there so you can get a feel of the reasons you would be claiming.
        I've been thinking about bringing the media on board for a while now, so I might investigate routes to do so. The problem for me is finding the time to write some enormous detailed report about the situation. The amount of my time that's already been wasted on this utterly ridiculous situation thanks to BMW FS' incompetence is laughable, so I'd rather not waste more time unncessarily, and I fear the media wouldn't even bother to respond if I contacted them.

        Rob - thanks for sending this template through. I will have a read through this later. Is this designed for use in a Small Claims Court type scenario, or via a privately instructed solicitor?

        What are your thoughts on the Small Claims route R0b? Frankly, if you think this would hold enough weight then I'm willing and ready to push the button on this. I'm sick to death of BMW FS - what they are doing is illegal, and so damaging to my perceived credit worthiness. As you know, I've tried a few different methods again of late, including investigating a new vehicle with BMW - my hope was that BMW FS would wise up and get things sorted with the prospect of a new sale in the mix, but unsurprisingly, they weren't interested. They still wouldn't budge an inch.

        If the Small Claims Route isn't viable, then I will have no choice at this point but to make BMW FS a without prejudice offer. I am so utterly loathed to do so, but I'm a young man who needs to extend his mortgage soon. I won't be able to do that whilst all this is rumbling on, so I might have to just try and see it as myself "being the bigger man".

        Comment


        • Rob - thanks for sending this template through. I will have a read through this later. Is this designed for use in a Small Claims Court type scenario, or via a privately instructed solicitor?
          The letter can be used for small claims, if you were instructing a solicitor then they would no doubt draft their own LBA. As above, its a rough and ready draft and a few things need tidying up and inserting such as claiming compensation.

          There's always a risk going to court on something like this, particularly where there is no clear case law authorities that provides the answer. I think we are all in agreement that what BMW is wrong and they are doing it because they can get away with it. Only a Court can make that decision and agree that what they are doing is unlawful. You'll see from the letter that there are suggestions and/or inferences which indicate that outstanding monies which are made up solely of fees or charges should not be reported on a credit account because it gives a misleading impression to other lenders and doesn't accurately reflect whether you've met the credit repayments under the agreement.

          Yes it would cost you money to issue a claim and it would then force BMW's hand to respond and either defend or settle the matter. I would suspect they might threaten you with legal costs if you pursue it and lose but I really can't see a court allowing that because its a moot point and open to interpretation. Legal costs are only recoverable if your conduct is unreasonable.

          As this is your dispute, you have to weigh up your options and if it means making a without prejudice offer then that is what you may need to do.
          Click here to check out my list of templates

          DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by R0b View Post

            Highly unlikely that you could take this further unless you bring someone else on board such as the media, or if everyone affected refers this to Elizabeth Denham. The only way I see it is to take court action, either BMW will defend it all the way to trial and in which case you have your day in court, otherwise they might try to settle at some point - their starting point will be to defend it. Otherwise, I don't think you are going to go anywhere.

            I've started drafting an example letter before action which is loosely based on something I had written to Santander about in relation to collection fees (see attached below). It's not yet complete and needs a little tidying up, but the majority of it is there so you can get a feel for the reasons you would be claiming.
            R0b thanks very much for your response, I appreciate the effort and time you spend on this matter to help us. Your letter to me sums up pretty much where we are and the facts of what BMWFS is doing. I'd like to proceed with this, if no one does we will never know the outcome and organisations like BMWFS will continue to ruin the lives of many in an unlawful way.

            I'd suspect if I sent this and then took them to court the facts being discussed at court would be their unlawful submissions rather than the disputed invoices, which BMWFS has confirmed that's what they are meaning if they are invoices and they don't form part of the HP agreement then they are fees and charges and thus unclaimable and should not be placed onto a credit agreement when that credit agreement was terminated and BMWFS agreed that under the CCA.

            I can't see how any reasonable person can see in favour of BMWFS, can you?

            They claim I owe 4400 if they felt that this was a sum they could recover and was worth recovering in court why haven't they bothered to take me to court?

            It only costs a few hundred pounds to take anyone to the small claims court and although I don't need the hassle and live in Australia I'll happily pay to do this although I'd need to ensure I get the court hearing in August so that I can attend, unless I get someone to appear for me?

            Surely this could be huge for the industry if they either win/lose?

            To me they just can't win, reading R0b's LBA it's a clear-cut case that BMWFS is being unreasonable and if going to court with these facts any reasonable person and judge would look down on BMWFS for their bullying tactics, which could ultimately leave some without a home or indeed push them over the edge.

            If I add in my content R0b can I ask you to look over it and modify to suit so that it reads like it's come from a lawyer, your writing looks much more legal than my own and I'm guessing if the LBA reads like that it'll make BMWFS site up and take note?

            KurtCrisco, no worries, I know how frustrating things are and the time wasted on this has probably outweighed the original claim from BMWFS but in principle, I believe we need to stick to our guns and take these bullies to court and call their bluff.

            Comment


            • Dehaw

              Feel free to use the draft LBA though I have completely re-amended it now so that I have a sub-heading on the 'legal framework' setting out the DPA provisions and definition of credit reference agency and then summarising the relevant guidance. I thought that might be a better fit to set the scene rather than trying to interweave the guidance between arguments under the 'basis of the claim' sub-heading. I'll post that version up when its finished so you can all see what it looks like - trying to keep it as simple and less legalese as possible is key.

              I'm just really busy at the moment so its taking me longer to sit down and type it all out but I am hoping by end of next week there will be a working LBA for others to use or cherry pick parts of the letter as they deem necessary.

              Happy to look over anything if you want to post up earlier but in terms of getting a court date by August this year, I would probably say that's not likely to happen. I always assume it will take at least 6 months before a trial date is confirmed, possibly 4 if things go to plan and the courts are not busy (which is never these days).
              Click here to check out my list of templates

              DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by R0b View Post
                Dehaw

                Feel free to use the draft LBA though I have completely re-amended it now so that I have a sub-heading on the 'legal framework' setting out the DPA provisions and definition of credit reference agency and then summarising the relevant guidance. I thought that might be a better fit to set the scene rather than trying to interweave the guidance between arguments under the 'basis of the claim' sub-heading. I'll post that version up when its finished so you can all see what it looks like - trying to keep it as simple and less legalese as possible is key.

                I'm just really busy at the moment so its taking me longer to sit down and type it all out but I am hoping by end of next week there will be a working LBA for others to use or cherry pick parts of the letter as they deem necessary.

                Happy to look over anything if you want to post up earlier but in terms of getting a court date by August this year, I would probably say that's not likely to happen. I always assume it will take at least 6 months before a trial date is confirmed, possibly 4 if things go to plan and the courts are not busy (which is never these days).
                Thanks for doing this R0b. Once you've finished it, I'm happy to submit this to BMW FS and see what their response is, so please do share.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by R0b View Post
                  Dehaw

                  Feel free to use the draft LBA though I have completely re-amended it now so that I have a sub-heading on the 'legal framework' setting out the DPA provisions and definition of credit reference agency and then summarising the relevant guidance. I thought that might be a better fit to set the scene rather than trying to interweave the guidance between arguments under the 'basis of the claim' sub-heading. I'll post that version up when its finished so you can all see what it looks like - trying to keep it as simple and less legalese as possible is key.

                  I'm just really busy at the moment so its taking me longer to sit down and type it all out but I am hoping by end of next week there will be a working LBA for others to use or cherry pick parts of the letter as they deem necessary.

                  Happy to look over anything if you want to post up earlier but in terms of getting a court date by August this year, I would probably say that's not likely to happen. I always assume it will take at least 6 months before a trial date is confirmed, possibly 4 if things go to plan and the courts are not busy (which is never these days).
                  Thanks a million, R0b!

                  I have contacted BMWFS and asked specifically for the contact details of the person that will be dealing with the court action, I did say that it is in connection with the false submissions on my credit file but I have yet to get a reply, they did get back to me the same day asking for my account number but they have not yet responded with any further details.

                  The only contact information I have is the vehicle logistics advisor but would be best to take this directly to the department that knows about it.

                  As soon as you end over the revised version I'll happily update it and get it submitted to them asap.

                  Comment


                  • Hi all

                    the likelihood is I will be taking BMWFS to a small claims court also. Any help in how best to approach this would really be appreciated. I am guessing I will have to aquire the services of solicitor , I have a good one in mind.

                    Comment


                    • I've finally been contacted by a BMWFS 'recover' advisor after my requests for the legal department complaining about my credit file being incorrectly marked.

                      KurtCrisco I used the content of one of your posts, which I slightly modified, that details the SCOR 2016 guidance since they obviously come back with the usual reply that they are doing it correctly, which of course is untrue.

                      I've advised them that I do not want a lengthy discussion and that I intend in taking them to court for deformation of character if they do not remove the defaults and mark my account as settled.

                      I await their response...

                      I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile referring to the many suicides brought on by this sort of practice ruining peoples lives and contacting the media to run a story on it, they could then follow how I get on, maybe it would bring out some good lawyer to fight the case and of course BMWFS to back down.

                      Comment


                      • Hi, I bought a used nissan qashqai from Evans Halshaw 18 months ago. It is literally falling apart I pay extra on my finance agreement each month for a guarantee in which I was told covers everything apart from serviceable items. LIES!! Sent it in with a few issues had to pay them 50 first for them to tell me what was wrong with it although I already knew that's why I took it back there for them to fix it under the apparent guarantee. They have never given me any sort of list either on what is and isn't covered. They got back to me saying o my a couple of things are covered so that I would get my 50 back. Took them 3 months to refund me! Just failed an mot on the issues I wanted them to fix that has been there since I first bought it. I have had enough now and want to withdraw from the contract. I understand that I will have to pay half of the balance which infuriates me! I have read on here that it should be in good condition for this to happen but it clearly wasn't when I bought it. Where do I stand? Would be grateful for any advise please.

                        Comment


                        • I would suggest you start your own thread with your Nissan problem so that it doesn't confuse the BMW thread and get missed

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dehaw View Post
                            I've finally been contacted by a BMWFS 'recover' advisor after my requests for the legal department complaining about my credit file being incorrectly marked.

                            KurtCrisco I used the content of one of your posts, which I slightly modified, that details the SCOR 2016 guidance since they obviously come back with the usual reply that they are doing it correctly, which of course is untrue.

                            I've advised them that I do not want a lengthy discussion and that I intend in taking them to court for deformation of character if they do not remove the defaults and mark my account as settled.

                            I await their response...

                            I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile referring to the many suicides brought on by this sort of practice ruining peoples lives and contacting the media to run a story on it, they could then follow how I get on, maybe it would bring out some good lawyer to fight the case and of course BMWFS to back down.
                            Not surprising. Every single item of correspondence I've received from them is full of utter waffle. Honestly, I don't even think they've even passed it to their legal team. They're that confident that we as the consumer are unable to fight them on this, that they won't even escalate it.

                            I admire your tenacity massively, but as you know I've been through all of this already - they'll just send you more nonsense in response. They got so sick of me contacting them, they don't even bother contacting me any more, as I've stated in previous posts.

                            I'm reliant on R0b finishing off the legal warning document that he provided, that'll be my next port of call. I'm hoping they might actually pass this on to their legal team, but I won't hold my breath.

                            I would love to find a way to get the media involved, but I just don't think they'll consider it a big enough scandal to bother with it. I've threatened BMW FS with going to the media before, and as per usual, they weren't fussed. I suppose it's for that reason I'm unsure of how much of an impact it'd actually have.

                            I've raised a complaint with BMW UK directly about the whole mess, as in my view they're equally responsible. They can tell me as much as they like that they're entirely separate to BMW Financial Services, but unfortunately for them, the BMW brand name is above both their doors. Yet to receive a response on this, but we'll see what this yields.

                            I've also been exploring another tactic of late. I've been speaking with multiple BMW dealerships about the "prospect" of purchasing a new vehicle, but ONLY if they agree to resolve things with BMW Financial Services. A few dealerships tried to be 'creative' with the figures to try and get the alleged balance cleared, but the vast majority wouldn't touch the situation with a barge pole. One particular dealership made me an offer that, on the surface of it appeared to work. They even went off and did the credit check with BMW Financial Services, which came back approved with no conditions. I thought this was very odd indeed, so I decided to call their bluff and verbally agree on it, provided that BMW Financial Services remove all the falsified missed/late payment entries and close my old agreement. The dealership went off to confirm this. They came back to me the following day saying that BMW Financial Services had come back to them with two new additional approval conditions. They wanted to apply an annual PCP mileage figure that was over double that which was originally approved, and surprise surprise, wanted me to pay the alleged outstanding balance by myself, in full. I responded to the dealership voicing my dissatisfaction, particularly surrounding the fact that they'd made me an offer which they now refused to honour. Despite my continued politeness and professionalism throughout the process, the sales representative with whom I'd been dealing with called me to discuss things and spoke to me in a way that I'd never before experienced in my life to date. The level of rudeness was absolutely disgusting. He actually ended up hanging up on me, telling me "you won't be dealing with me anymore, go somewhere else. Please don't contact me." I now have an additional complaint running with BMW UK alongside the other one.

                            All fun and games!
                            Last edited by KurtCrisco; 29th June 2018, 13:19:PM.

                            Comment


                            • I am new to this site but thank you for your suggestion.

                              Comment


                              • Well it has been some time but I've finally updated an example letter before action that you could use as a basis for bringing a claim. I'll admit that there's probably things in there that can be improved upon but hopefully gives you some comfort to know what you are talking about. In essence, if you were to bring a claim then the contents of the letter is probably what you are going to argue in court.

                                I should point out that there are a few things in there that may or may not apply to your situation so be sure to make sure the letter is accurate if you are intending on using it. If you need access to it, I'll add it to my list of templates which you can find by clicking here.

                                Would be good to know your thoughts and comments.
                                Attached Files
                                Click here to check out my list of templates

                                DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

                                Comment

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