Dispute with garage over second hand car

[tuafc]

Hi,

First time poster but long time lurker here. I hoped to never need the services of those on here but here goes:

I bought a car this weekend from a dealer in Sheffield for £3,700. I paid a deposit of £300 on card and the rest as cash on collection. It was described as mint condition, I was assured over the phone countless times I would find no issues with it and so I got the train up and picked it up last weekend.

On driving it home (I live in Sussex 200 miles away) I noticed that the tracking was way out (minor issuer) and the clutch didn't work properly. I immediately called the dealer whose first response was "I'm not playing games, I can see you are a time waster so just bring the car back for a refund". I was reluctant as I do want the car and he agreed that if I got a quote from a local garage he would see about repairs instead. I now have a quote for something that is definitely wrong (the clutch master cylinder, £150 all in) but the dealer has said he does not want to pay for the repair and wants the car back.

Does he have the right to only offer a refund? What about my costs? So far I have incurred the costs of a trip to Sheffield and back (£90), Insurance (which will have a cancellation charge of £55) and I will also have the costs of a second trip to Sheffield to return the car. The dealer is very authoritative with the law and states under the SOGA I have no right to have my expenses refunded even though I have only incurred them because he has sold me a faulty item.

I guess he wants me to just pay for the work myself to avoid the hassle and to avoid having spent £230 with nothing to show for it, however I see no reason why I should.

Where do I stand with:

• Making him pay for the repairs rather than solely offering a refund?
• Claiming my costs incurred back as well as my refund if that is the only option?

Many thanks in advance

[teaboy2]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Hi Tuafc

Under the sales of goods act, you have rights under warranty of contract where the seller is liable to repair or pay for the repair required. If he is only offering a refund then he is in breach of warranty in contract.

A stern formal letter to him stating that unless he sends you a cheque for the repairs you will have the repairs done and sue him in court for the cost of the reapirs under breach or warranty in the contract of sale as per the sale of goods act 1979 and for breach of your right to queit enjoyment of the car (goods) under the same legislation, where you will seeking compensation for loss of earnings, due to total time off work getting the car fixed, cost spend on travelling, total cost of the repairs plus interest and damages for the breach of warranty under contract it self. Also inform them on top of the compensation and damages a court will award, they may also face significant legal fees should they lose in court. Then state for the cost of the repair, that you suggest they keep to their original agreement to cover the costs as you will also be claiming in court for misrepresentation of goods pre-contract of sale, if they continue to refuse to honour the contract and warranty under the contract as per the sales of goods act 1979.

[labman]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

This may not be what you want to hear, but given your experience with the car so far, how much faith would you have in the dealer bringing the car up to standard given you now know what his definition of Mint is?

Might you not be better cutting your losses and finding a good car without faults elsewhere? At least he is offering the refund.

If the above is not something you would consider, then Teaboy's advice, as always, is top notch!

[tuafc]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Thanks for your response.

Can I just be clear, should I have these repairs done or not? I am wary that I will pay for them and never be refunded, or worse still there will be more problems and I will end up having the car refunded and will have paid out £150 on parts for it.

I sent an email regarding the repairs and he stated again that as he has offered a full refund that he is not liable for any repairs and that the refund would not include any expenses ("and you can check with Trading Standards if you don't believe me").

If I get the repairs done and he refuses to pay/ignores my letter, what is my next step to follow through with the conditions I have mentioned? I have never had a legal dispute before and want to make sure a. I am on solid ground and b. I know the likely full process before I start something like this.

I guess people like him prey on people not wanting to take on the law etc and I am keen not to just shrug it off and have it be my problem.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Labman - the dealer is in Sheffield and I am in Sussex so I would get any work done at a local garage I trust and have him charged for the works. You are right in that I would not trust him to do them givien his previous assurances.
My issue is thus getting him to pay for the repairs rather than to carry them out.

[teaboy2]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

as he has offered a full refund that he is not liable for any repairs and that the refund would not include any expenses ("and you can check with Trading Standards if you don't believe me").

Thats rubbish as it contary to what the law states. You want the car repaired so it is in the mint condition he stated pre contract. By stating it was in mint condition when it was not was misrepresentation of contract, it is not for him to decide if you havea refund or they honour the warranty by repairing or paying for the repairs. It is up to you if you want to keep the car so long as it is repaired. Trading standards are certainly not on his side, as they are 100% against misleading sales practices such as misrepresentation.

Unltimately its upto you, do you pay for the cost of travel back to sheffied and get a refund and pruchase another car from somewhere else and pay the cost of travelling to that. Or do you pay for repair yourself and then issue a court claim to recover your costs and for compensations and damages for thei misrepresentation and breach of contract warranty. I think it will likely cost you more than £150 taking the car back for a refund and getting a train back and then traveling by train to pick up another car from elsewhere.

Personally you have a clear cut case and will likely win in court easily.

In fact contact sheffield trading standards and make a formal compleint also contact VOSA informing them that this guy is selling cars etc that are not safe to drive whilst discribing them in mint condition and refusing to pay for the repairs needed in breach of warranty. Both will then be obliged to investigate the seller and could prosecute him as well as force him to repair your car or pay for the repair.

[tuafc]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Thanks for the advice so far.

My wife is not too sure about the legal route - she would rather just be shot of it. If we choose this line, can I insist he collects the car at his expense?

The car was not delivered to me, I collected it in the first place so not sure if this makes a difference. To take it back to sheffield would be a full day and would incur significant petrol and train costs for me, again he has said these would be my problem not his.

[teaboy2]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Given his atitude to the problem i very much doubt he would collect the car from you. As i said contact the Sheffield Trading Standards Agnacy and the VOSA, they will get the car sorted for you at the sellers expense.

[tuafc]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Will do. Went on the Trading Standards website and they state all consumer issues should go through Consumer Direct. Is this a worthwhile pursuit or am I best ignoring this and seeking to contact Trading Standards directly?

[teaboy2]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Trading standards they are responsible for ensure traders act accordingly and lawfully. Consumer Direct may also beable to help, but trading standards are the ones that can take direct action such as visiting the seller in person.

[labman]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Buying a car - your rights : Directgov - Government, citizens and rights

The trader may be right. Read this, then click on link to Returning Faulty Items and read that page. It would appear the trader could be correct.

[tuafc]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Its not exactly clear is it? The page talks a lot about refunds or repairs but seems to assume that the buyer will always want a refund if possible.

It doesn't actually provide an answer to whether a refund is all a seller can offer if the buyer actually wants a repair.

From his point of view he is always going to prefer the refund as he can then sell the car on again for £3,700 and be the same amount up. If he pays for repairs he will be £150 down agains the refund option.

[labman]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Government, citizens and rights



Returning faulty items


When you buy an item from a trader and it turns out to be faulty, you should be offered a repair, replacement or refund. Find out what your rights are, when to return an item and what you can do if you disagree with a trader.

Faulty items and your consumer rights

Any item you buy from a trader (eg shop or online shop) must be:

• of satisfactory quality
• fit for purpose
• as described

If it isn’t, the item is faulty and you can usually get one of the following:

• repair
• replacement
• refund

You may also have other rights depending on where you bought the item and how you paid for it (see link below).

• Consumer rights - an introduction

Returning a faulty item

If something you bought is faulty, tell the trader as soon as possible. This may be by taking the item back to the shop or contacting the trader to let them know there is a problem.
You will need to provide a proof of purchase, eg a receipt or invoice. Some traders may accept a credit card bill or bank statement, eg if months have passed since you bought the item.
You can’t take back an item if you caused the fault. For example, if you dropped a mobile phone and cracked the screen or didn’t follow care instructions for clothes.
If this happens, you may still be able to claim under your home insurance or if the item has a warranty. A warranty gives you extra rights, eg to a repair or replacement when something goes wrong. Check the details of your policy to see if you can claim.

• Guarantees and warranties – your consumer rights

Refunds and faulty goods

A trader will usually offer you a refund for a faulty item if you:

• have proof of purchase, eg a receipt
• haven’t had a chance to use the item or have only used the item a few times

If you’ve had or used the item for a longer period of time, by law you have ‘accepted’ the goods. You won’t be entitled to a refund, but the trader should offer to repair or replace the item.
A repair must fix the original fault (eg a broken zip). If it doesn’t, you can then ask for either a refund or replacement.


I can see what you mean. Simple answer is to phone them and ask them:


Tel: 08454 04 05 06

[charitynjw]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Would this help?

http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advic.../sogaexplained

(esp 4 & 5)

The SOGA Hub is a easy-to-understand resource.

[tuafc]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Great link, thanks.

I guess this answers the question:

Faulty goods, no acceptance

If the item does not conform to contract (is faulty) for any of the reasons mentioned previously, and the customer has not accepted the goods, the law says the customer is entitled to

• reject the goods and claim a full refund, or
• request a repair or replacement if that is the customer's preferred option.

As the retailer, you can offer a repair, a replacement or a credit note, but you cannot insist on any one of these. It is the customer's right to receive a full refund in these circumstances.


Where a customer is entitled to a full refund because they have not accepted the goods but have agreed that you may repair or replace the goods, they can still claim a full refund if the repair or replacement is

• taking an unreasonable time, or
• causing an unreasonable inconvenience, or
• if the repair or replacement is not satisfactory when they receive it.

Faulty goods that have been accepted
If the item does not conform to contract (is faulty) for any of the reasons outlined and the customer has accepted the goods, the law says the customer is entitled to claim a repair or replacement of the goods in the first instance.

If either a repair or replacement is not possible, or the cost is greater than the value of the item (disproportionately costly), or the customer claims either option is taking an unreasonable amount of time or is causing unreasonable inconvenience, the customer is then entitled to

• keep the goods and claim a price reduction from the retailer to compensate them for the fault in the goods - this would be the difference between the value of the product in perfect condition and the value of the product in the faulty condition, or
• return the goods and rescind the contract. This would mean that the customer returns the goods and you provide a partial refund, calculated to reflect the benefit the customer has received from the product.

Where a customer is entitled to repair or replacement because they have accepted the goods, they can claim price reduction or partial refund if the repair or replacement is

• taking an unreasonable time, or
• causing an unreasonable inconvenience, or
• if the repair or replacement is not satisfactory when they receive it.

Would I be classed as having accepted the car by paying for it and driving it away, or does the fact I have not conducted a thorough inspection up until it went to the local garage mean I have not yet had chance to accept it? Either way it seems the power is with me to chose a repair ahead of a refund.

[tuafc]

Re: Dispute with garage over second hand car

Well I am now just more confused than ever.

Rang Consumer Direct and basically read out my original post.
They said as he had offered a refund any judge would consider that reasonable and so would not award me the repairs cost in a court. I pointed them to the passage on the OFT website that states I have the right to chose between a repair and a refund, and she said this didn’t matter in reality as if I took it to court a judge would view the garage’s actions as reasonable and so find against me.

Bit disheartened now, the OFT website made it seem so clear yet this cast doubt again. I have no intention of starting a legal dispute if I am not confident of victory, I have neither the funds nor inclination to do this. Seems this garagae will get their way then flog the motor to someone else who will have to foot the bill for the repairs.