alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

[sandeman]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

If it can be managed, I think his withdrawing might be welcomed by everyone given the stage we are at. There may be the difficulty, given what has happened here, that someone might in the future seek to reopen an unresolved matter, as they just did.

[bluebottle]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

If it can be managed, I think his withdrawing might be welcomed by everyone given the stage we are at. There may be the difficulty, given what has happened here, that someone might in the future seek to reopen an unresolved matter, as they just did.

That is one of the problems with HR. Some HR people I have come across have been brilliant and earned the respect and confidence of both management and workforce. I have also come across those whom I would not approach unless armed with a crucifix, wooden stake and mallet and with garlic strung around my neck.

[Johnboy007]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

When I was at work, and I should think the same applies to Bluebottle, we never had HR or any other two lettered organisation.
We had 'THEM and US'............
Life was so much easier then.
We hated establishment (management) and they sure as hell hated us.
But we tolerated each other, smiles all round so to speak.
But in the end in %99.9 of cases, the problems were resolved amicably.
Well sort off.......
:rant:

[sandeman]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

It seems that while I was writing War and Peace, JB beat me to it with some very practical and down-to-earth advice.

Hi Bluebottle. I read your second long reply which was quite interesting, but it now seems to have disappeared. This certainly isnt settled yet, more a question of having some ideas how to approach it. I think there may be a little lull in the fighting while management considers its position.

There is a suggestion that one of the complainants might have been involved in a grievance some years ago, where someone was moved to work elsewhere as a result. Whether or not he had a well founded case on that occasion, it might have given him the idea of engineering something now. Seems to me this would be relevant evidence, particulalry since management takes the view that two incidents equates with guilt. However, even taking a more balanced view, it strikes me as something they would be obliged to take into consideration? That he knew doing x would result in Y.

in the other current allegation, it seems quite likely the complainant must have been involved in some disciplinary action already about the circumstances he is complaining of. It seems likely he was not supposed to be where he says the event took place. This could explain why there is no statement from his manager backing up the allegation. Since this would be evidence why he had a reason to lie, ie it was someone elses fault he was there, surely the employer could not reasonably hold back this information? At present all they have said is that they are aware the defendant is aware there is some kind of issue.

[bluebottle]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Hi Sandeman,

In a nutshell, if allegations are being made against someone, they are entitled to know -

1. who is making the allegations; and
2. the nature of the allegations; and
3. evidence to substantiate the allegations.

If these three things are not met, then the employer should not be surprised if the matter turns round and bites them on the backside. And if the matter were to end up before an ET, that bite on the backside could prove very expensive for the employer.

[Johnboy007]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

I think you really should stop speculating on what may or may not have happened in the past.
"suggestion that one of the complainants might have been involved in a grievance some years ago", is also speculation and has no bearing on the recent activities.

This could explain why there is no statement from his manager backing up the allegation. Since this would be evidence why he had a reason to lie, ie it was someone elses fault he was there, surely the employer could not reasonably hold back this information? At present all they have said is that they are aware the defendant is aware
there is some kind of issue.

The employer can hold back whatever they like.
They have merely stated that they are aware the defendant is aware there is some kind of issue.
On your part, your interpretation is pure speculation at this stage.

[sandeman]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Hi Sandeman,

In a nutshell, if allegations are being made against someone, they are entitled to know -

1. who is making the allegations; and
2. the nature of the allegations; and
3. evidence to substantiate the allegations.

the question, though, is whether they are entitled to know evidence which tends to refute the allegation. from what you have said, they are.

I think you really should stop speculating on what may or may not have happened in the past.

Ok, lets give up the idea of having witnesses and evidence then...they are almost always 'in the past'.

"suggestion that one of the complainants might have been involved in a grievance some years ago", is also speculation and has no bearing on the recent activities.

No, it isnt speculation. he was. The question is whether it is relevant. The whole idea of investigating is to find out things and see if they turn out to be relevant. Isn't it? Maybe it isnt relevant, but I wont know that until i find out what it was. What i know so far sounds relevant.

The employer can hold back whatever they like.

Can he? Well obviously he can do it, but is he legally entitled to, that is the question.

On your part, your interpretation is pure speculation at this stage.

I didnt expect anyone here would be able to provide evidence, I was hoping for advice on what to do with it if i found some, or whether I have a right to be given evidence contrary to the employers case, which he may be holding.

The thing about understanding the background is it allows a picture to be drawn of what really happened. Then look for evidence to support this theory, or indeed to refute it. Sherlock homes, here we go.

I am beginning to suspect the HR person is getting worried. First he tried to rush this through, then he promised to assist in any way, then he said he would get back on a succession of awkward questions. At the moment I think he is trying to fend off cross claims because of incompetence in the employers investigation. Someone elsewhere suggested that most private companies would by now be reaching for their chequebooks.

In the one case, the circumstances in which an allegation was made and then shelved seem to me directly relevant to whether it is a credible allegation. If he was committing misconduct at the time, and used a lie in an investigation about that to get out of it, that seems relevant to me.

The discussion above rather suggested that if the HR person has now realised that at least one of the allegations is false, he cannot in law allow proceedings to go forward on that allegation. If he does, then he may be liable personally or on the employers behalf for any bad consequences resulting for the defendant.

[bluebottle]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

the question, though, is whether they are entitled to know evidence which tends to refute the allegation. from what you have said, they are.
A person is entitled to see ALL evidence - for and against - in order to prepare their defence. That is one of the oldest principles in law and a right.
The thing about understanding the background is it allows a picture to be drawn of what really happened. Then look for evidence to support this theory, or indeed to refute it. Sherlock homes, here we go.
It sounds more Sherlock Homes than Sherlock Holmes. Allegations must be based on fact, not theory, supposition or conjecture.
I am beginning to suspect the HR person is getting worried. First he tried to rush this through, then he promised to assist in any way, then he said he would get back on a succession of awkward questions. At the moment I think he is trying to fend off cross claims because of incompetence in the employers investigation. Someone elsewhere suggested that most private companies would by now be reaching for their chequebooks.
Is this HR person in-house or an outside contractor? It sounds like they and the employer are two of a kind - inept and incompetent. And, yes, a lot of private firms would be reaching for their chequebooks by now. I doubt they would last very long if such a case went to an ET.

---

In the one case, the circumstances in which an allegation was made and then shelved seem to me directly relevant to whether it is a credible allegation. If he was committing misconduct at the time, and used a lie in an investigation about that to get out of it, that seems relevant to me.

The discussion above rather suggested that if the HR person has now realised that at least one of the allegations is false, he cannot in law allow proceedings to go forward on that allegation. If he does, then he may be liable personally or on the employers behalf for any bad consequences resulting for the defendant.
If the HR person has an ounce of commonsense, they should drop the matter altogether and advise the employer to do the same. Although I have seen proceedings go ahead based on false allegations, it has not become apparent that allegations have been false until during the proceedings. Initiating and pursuing proceedings based on a false allegation, knowing the allegation to be false, may, depending on the circumstances, be a breach of trust and confidence or unlawful.

Responses in red text above.

[Johnboy007]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Ok, lets give up the idea of having witnesses and evidence then...they are almost always 'in the past'.

Bit of a silly statement really my friend.
Ok so what have you got,
Someone was involved in a grievance years ago.
Is it relevant.
NO, it happened years ago and has nothing to do with your case.
You stated in a previous post
suggestion that one of the complainants might have been involved in a grievance some years ago
I draw you to the word MIGHT.........
So it is speculation, that he might have been in a grievance.
Definition of speculation.......
A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
Your other statement.
This could explain why there is no statement from his manager backing up the allegation. Since this would be evidence why he had a reason to lie, ie it was someone elses fault he was there, surely the employer could not reasonably hold back this information? At present all they have said is that they are aware the defendant is aware
there is some kind of issue.
This COULD explain why there is no statement, so COULD the manager never submitted one.
This COULD explain, is not the same as, it DOES explain, so it is speculation my friend.
So you are speculating about your previous speculation.
Nothing has been proven.
MIGHT is not the same as DID, and therefore it could be MIGHT NOT.
This my friend, is what you will face at a hearing.
If it goes to tribunal then you will have to face possible Legal bods who would tear your statement to bits.

In post No 52 above, you changed your mind and said that he did attend a grievance hearing.
Now he either did, or he didn't, or he may have done.
Which one is it?
Maybe it isn't relevant, but I wont know that until i find out what it was
So until you do, everything is just speculation, or an opinion, or theory reached by an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
Get all your FACTS together, then make your judgement based on those facts, and not on inconclusive assumptions.
And if you think I am being pushy or unfair, wait until you meet an employment solicitor.
:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[sandeman]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

If the HR person has an ounce of commonsense, they should drop the matter altogether and advise the employer to do the same. Although I have seen proceedings go ahead based on false allegations, it has not become apparent that allegations have been false until during the proceedings. Initiating and pursuing proceedings based on a false allegation, knowing the allegation to be false, may, depending on the circumstances, be a breach of trust and confidence or unlawful.

In this case there has been an investigation which found a case to answer. The HR person now probably realises that one of the allegations is false, the other is problematic for some reason as yet unexplained. This complaint was likely made in the middle of action against the complainant for the circumstances described in the complaint, which would seem such as to admit that the complainant was doing something wrong at the time. Presumably he would only say that if he had already been caught doing it. And then there is the difficulty for HR that their investigation found none of this, it was brought to their attention by the defendant after the investigation was completed. So now matters are in between the investigation and a disciplinary hearing. The question is whether at this point the employer ought to fold without any further process or is entitled to insist on a disciplinary hearing. My own suggestion would be that the employer withdraw the investigation and have a new one.

[Johnboy007]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

In this case there has been an investigation which found a case to answer. The HR person now probably realises that one of the allegations is false, the other is problematic for some reason as yet unexplained. This complaint was likely made in the middle of action against the complainant for the circumstances described in the complaint, which would seem such as to admit that the complainant was doing something wrong at the time. Presumably he would only say that if he had already been caught doing it. And then there is the difficulty for HR that their investigation found none of this, it was brought to their attention by the defendant after the investigation was completed. So now matters are in between the investigation and a disciplinary hearing. The question is whether at this point the employer ought to fold without any further process or is entitled to insist on a disciplinary hearing. My own suggestion would be that the employer withdraw the investigation and have a new one.

Sandeman, I am not having a go at you, but you are still speculating my friend.
The HR person now probably realises
This complaint was likely made in the middle of action
which would seem such as to admit that the complainant
Presumably he would only say.

If you have to make any statement at a hearing, try to avoid these sort of words.
The other side will pick up on it, just as I have.
Just a friendly tip....

[sandeman]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Ok so what have you got,
Someone was involved in a grievance years ago.
Is it relevant.
NO, it happened years ago and has nothing to do with your case.

Why? person lodges a complaint, result is someone he doesnt like gets moved elsewhere. Having discovered this trick, he decides to do it again.

suggestion that one of the complainants might have been involved in a grievance some years ago. I draw you to the word MIGHT.........So it is speculation, that he might have been in a grievance.

We seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding. When i say 'might', i mean it is unclear what happened because I have only a garbled account of it. I asked the employer to confirm that this did happen. Presumably he would know, and then the 'might' disappears one way or the other.

If nothing happened, then he can simply say so. If something did happen, then he can also say so, except that he might refuse on confidentiality grounds. But then, if he decides he cannot tell but also that it seems relevant, what can he lawfully do?

This COULD explain why there is no statement, so COULD the manager never submitted one.
This COULD explain, is not the same as, it DOES explain, so it is speculation my friend.

Well I could just go home, not ask any questions and let justice take its course. But if i did i don't think it would be very just. The point about examining the alternative possibilities is to find out what alternatives there really are. There is plenty of scope for finding things out, including simply asking the employer, who has stonewalled cautiously up to this point. There are certainly several possibilities, but when i ask people here to consider one and what its consequences might be, I do not mean i have discounted all the others.

Get all your FACTS together, then make your judgement based on those facts, and not on inconclusive assumptions.

Thats what I am trying to do. In posting here i am seeking advice on the unfolding situation. There are unfolding investigations which might find different alternatives to be the facts, and I am trying to discover in advance what would be the consequences of different facts. trying to get ahead of the game, in case things suddenly start happening fast.

If you have to make any statement at a hearing, try to avoid these sort of words.
The other side will pick up on it, just as I have.

Posts i write here seek to explain the situation, not make a case. I'm not asking advice on how to phrase it, but what are the implications if a certain thing turns out to be the case.

[Johnboy007]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Thats what I am trying to do. In posting here i am seeking advice on the unfolding situation. There are unfolding investigations which might find different alternatives to be the facts, and I am trying to discover in advance what would be the consequences of different facts. trying to get ahead of the game, in case things suddenly start happening fast.

Well my friend until we know the facts, we can only give advise on assumption.
I do not like giving advice of assumption, simply because I could be a mile apart from the truth.:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[wales01man]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Whats the FULL story here looks like a lot of speculation no real info and evidence makes ne as an outsider think there is something not related to work.

Have to wonder what the OP wants to gain from all this. Johnboy is offering advice based on a few facts then is verbally slapped in the face wonder if its worth him trying to help.

[Johnboy007]

Re: alleged assault, forthcoming disciplinary

Whats the FULL story here looks like a lot of speculation no real info and evidence makes ne as an outsider think there is something not related to work.

Have to wonder what the OP wants to gain from all this. Johnboy is offering advice based on a few facts then is verbally slapped in the face wonder if its worth him trying to help.

Thanks for this Boyo.
Was beginning to think the same thing myself.