Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

[law novice]

So, long story! I've hunted long and hard to find a resolution and can't afford legal advice so i thought i'd try here.....

My husband signed an agreement before he went on a 3 day training course last year to say he would pay back training costs if he left within a certain period after completing the course. The agreement he signed stated that the course costs would be £299, i.e. the amount of money the company would have to pay the external provider for him to attend the course. This amount was the ONLY amount stated on the clawback agreement signed.

Within 3 months my husband handed in his resignation (on a sidenote he resigned due to an argument with his MD which had led to working conditions being made very unpleasant for him - although we do not have enough evidence to go down the constuctive dismissal route) and accepted that this £299 would be deducted from his final wage. No problem there. However, upon receiving his final months pay he had been deducted 4 days wages as well (the extra 1 for a day completing on the job tasks required for course qualification).

Given the fact that a specific amount was mentioned in the clause he signed can the company take more? They claim it comes under 'training fees' but we are argunig that this amount was never previously mentioned and they can't just 'make up' extra amounts that weren't specifically mentioned previously.
We are also aware of other employees who left and had actual course fees deducted but no days wages - surely discrimination??

The way they deducted the days wages was to charge my husband 'holiday' for the days he was on the course, resulting in him oweing unaccrued holiday. Again, there was no agreement to holiday being taken / deducted in the clawback. Surely the extra monies deducted are an unlawful deduction of wages?

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Anyone?? Can I assume this is a toughie given that no one has responded?? Any help at all would be much appreciated.

As an update - the company failed to respond to the ACAS concilliation deadline, but have requested an extension with ACAS for two weeks. I wrote to tell them I was intending on taking them to court which is what prompted them to request an extension.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

They are only permitted to take the £299, taking anything above that would make such extra sums an unlawful deduction of wages under section 13 of the employment rights act 1996.

Do you have written copy of the agreement regarding the training fees being repayable?

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Yes - we do have a copy stating the £299 only. They've claimed the wages are still included as training fees though and as my husband signed to say they could deduct training fees they're entitled to that too!! I didn't think it was the case that they could just take whatever they wanted! There's not much online but I found something saying they should give actual amounts before they make any deductions, so I thought we were in the right - just wanted to check with someone who had legal knowledge.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Can you scan up a copy please, minus any personal details that could identify your husband or the company? Or if you can copy exactly what is said on the document word for word typing it up here, that would be useful.

Just need to see exactly how they have worded the document/clause to determine for certain if what they are saying is correct or not?

Am currently assuming the document was just for the cost of the course itself, but it sounds like they have deducted his wages for the days he was on the course too. Is that correct?

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Yes the document was for 'training costs' and they have stated, after the fact, that it includes wages too, however, the only sum stated is £299 and there is no mention of days wages - but on leaving (under a bit of a cloud- see first post) they have taken 4 days. No mention of this previously and I'm pretty sure the contract is fairly unambiguous.
I'll try and scan it to you.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

So in total they have taken £299 plus on top of that they have taken 4 days wages, even thought the course was only for 3 days? (Just so am clear on the facts)

Have you had any joy with scanning it?

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Yes. That's correct. The 4th day was a day spent at work completing a task required for the course. But my husband was AT WORK! They had no other work available for him to do after he had completed the 'on the job' part of his course so he went home to type it up - his office were fully aware of this as he phoned up to let them know beforehand. They are now claiming they were 'snowed under' that day and he shouldn't have gone home, however, he had made them aware of where he was and they were more than capable of picking up a telephone and asking him to come in to the office. Interestingly, on speaking to a collegue from the office, my husband was informed that it was so quiet that day even the office staff had nothing to do!
Yes - I've managed to scan but not sure how to black-out the personal bits.....may just type it up!

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Further to discussions regarding the above course, i am pleased to inform you that the compnay will pay the full cost of the course fees. The amount paid by the company will be £299.00.
You will appreciate that the cost of the training is substantial and it is therefore necessary for you to enter into the agreement outlined below before the course commences, to allow the company to recoup the cost of the course, should you leave employement during the course or during a specified peroid after the course has ended. If you do not attend the course for any reason ... you will be required to pay the full cost of the course to the company.
You are required to remain in the company's employment for a period of not less than 6 months following the compltion of the course. If you leave the service of the company prior to the completion of this period ... you agree to repay in full the cost of the training.
(There is a section on the sliding scale of repayment - after 6 months 50% owed etc.)
The company reserves the right to deduct from your final salary payment any monies owing under this agreement.

I have left a few bits out which i feel are irrelevant but above includes the main points.

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

They are claiming the 'full cost of the training' is different to 'full cost of the course fees'. However, this is ambiguous at best! And if the 'cost of training' is indeed different as they are stating they should have included the differing amounts. I am aware that an ambiguous contract will go against them and in favour of my husband - but I'm not sure it is ambiguous as there is no mention at all of wages being deducted.
Also on my husband's final payslip the £299 is marked as 'training costs' NOT 'course fees'. They have deducted the four days wages as holiday.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

They are claiming the 'full cost of the training' is different to 'full cost of the course fees'. However, this is ambiguous at best! And if the 'cost of training' is indeed different as they are stating they should have included the differing amounts. I am aware that an ambiguous contract will go against them and in favour of my husband - but I'm not sure it is ambiguous as there is no mention at all of wages being deducted.
Also on my husband's final payslip the £299 is marked as 'training costs' NOT 'course fees'. They have deducted the four days wages as holiday.

Right all they are entitled to is £299 if that is all the clause states, and so long as their is no mention of deductions for training fees in his employment contract. Therefore the 4 days deductions of wages are unlawful deductions and even though your husband was on a training course he is entitled to be paid his normal wages for those days and travel expenses.

I can see how they can deduct them as holidays, as your husband is entitled to be paid normal wages as holiday pay for days holidays. Unless hes taken 4 days holiday above what holidays he actually had accrued prior to leaving.

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

He was owed 1.5 days holiday on leaving the company - this was confirmed by HR the day before he left. When he has received his final wage slip they have in fact, taken 2.5 off of him (as this amount was unaccrued and equals the 4 days) and claimed it was for the course. However, previous to this there was no mention of him having to take holiday to attend the course - they have simply used this as a way of deducting the money. And, from my research, holiday pay comes under the 'wage' umbrella in being protected from unlawful deductions.

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

He was owed 1.5 days holiday on leaving the company - this was confirmed by HR the day before he left. When he has received his final wage slip they have in fact, taken 2.5 off of him (equaling the 4 days) and claimed it was for the course. However, previous to this there was no mention of him having to take holiday to attend the course - they have simply used this as a way of deducting the money. And, from my research, holiday pay comes under the 'wage' umbrella in being protected from unlawful deductions.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Right so he was owed 1.5 in accrued holiday, but they took 2.5 days off him for the three days training course and the extra 1.5 days (to make 4 in total) as training fees?

You are correct regarding holiday pay being protected under unlawful deductions in wages in regards to the employment rights act 1996 as it is confirmed as such under section 27 "Meaning of "wages" etc". Which states quite clearly:

"Meaning of “wages” etc.

(1)In this Part “wages”, in relation to a worker, means any sums payable to the worker in connection with his employment, including—

(a)any fee, bonus, commission, holiday pay or other emolument referable to his employment, whether payable under his contract or otherwise,"

[law novice]

Re: Unlawful deductions even though i signed?

Yes, that is correct. So instead of being paid 1.5 days remaining leave, as we were expecting, they took 2.5 days from him. Meaning my husband was 4 days worse off than expected. Given that no permission was given for these days to be taken as holiday (it states in my husband's contract that written authorisation is required prior to holiday being taken - so this should work the other was round if they wanted to take holiday from him) then it amounts to unlawful deduction, right?
They requested an extension from ACAS to the concilliation deadline, so we are now waiting to see if they settle through ACAS before going to court to get the money.