help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

[Inca]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

In the long run she would have had so many battles there and would have to be on tenterhooks the entire time,so in a way she's best off out of there altogether.
Claims of verbal racism are always going to be difficult to defend,,more so when other colleagues are prepared to lie and back up lies told by others

[FlamingParrot]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

In the long run she would have had so many battles there and would have to be on tenterhooks the entire time,so in a way she's best off out of there altogether.
Claims of verbal racism are always going to be difficult to defend,,more so when other colleagues are prepared to lie and back up lies told by others

Indeed, the problem is when words are taken completely out of context, it's not what you say but how you say it and why. Whilst I fully agree that racism should be stamped out, there's a HUGE difference between using the word in conversation when telling a story, as in "She called that guy a paki, can you believe it?" as opposed to "I don't think that paki should be getting the promotion". There's nothing wrong with the first statement, while the second one is clearly a racist remark.

It's also significant how certain words have such a negative connotation, such as 'paki', which is merely an abbreviation of 'Pakistani', meaning a person from Pakistan, no more, no less. Referring to Americans as 'Yanks' is nowhere nearly as bad, despite the fact that 'Yankees' are just the ones from the North Eastern US who were at war with the Southerners, yet people in Europe may still refer to a Texan as a 'Yank'.

If referring to New Zealanders as 'Kiwis' was a sackable offence, there would be no-one left working in the City!

[enquirer]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

... why the person she was actually speaking to would need to confirm what she said with another male that made a witness statement before he told the complainant.

Collusion. If she appeals, press this point.

[CleverClogs]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

Indeed, the problem is when words are taken completely out of context, it's not what you say but how you say it and why. Whilst I fully agree that racism should be stamped out, there's a HUGE difference between using the word in conversation when telling a story, as in "She called that guy a paki, can you believe it?" as opposed to "I don't think that paki should be getting the promotion". There's nothing wrong with the first statement, while the second one is clearly a racist remark.

Not necessarily, unless one believes that the term "paki" was used to indicate that people from Pakistan are somehow inferior.

On the other hand, "wog" is usually offensive, unless it is used by a $cientologist to denote someone who is not part of that mind-bending, kooky cult.

It's also significant how certain words have such a negative connotation, such as 'paki', which is merely an abbreviation of 'Pakistani', meaning a person from Pakistan, no more, no less.

Even though the person might have been born in what is now Bangladesh?

[MissFM]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

All my children's friends of Pakistani origin routinely refer to themselves as "Pakis", possibly with post-modern irony. I think it's one of those words, like the N word, that it's OK to use if about oneself but considered offensive if used by someone of a different ethnic origin, however affectionate or neutral in intention that use may be. It's the same with jokes - you can only tell Jewish jokes if you're Jewish, Irish jokes if you're Irish and so forth, assuming that you wish to be sure not to cause offence (perhaps not a universal aspiration).

"Pakistan" translates literally as Pure, Clean, Holy Land although many (mis)translate it as Land of the Pure.

A digression not particularly helpful to the OP, though.

If you're looking to brand someone a racist, a homophobe, a sexist, or a whatever-ist I would imagine there are plenty of opportunities in almost anyone's unguarded speech to twist or subtly edit their words to that end, as said above. Particularly if you're willing to tell fibs in the process. The workplace ethos described sounds poisonous and I agree that the OP's friend is probably best of out of it, FWIW.

Although it would be good to demonstrate the collusion and untruths.

[Tools]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

Been keeping a watch over this one and despite the evidence and good advice you have received I`m sorry to hear your friend was still sacked.

If she does decide to appeal then good on her, but I do tend to agree that if she was successful I wouldn't want to work at the same place after that.

She could approach her employer and explain that although she has been advised she has a good case to appeal, she is willing to accept dismissal on the basis that they will provide her with a standard reference in order to look for alternative employment.

Don`t hesitate to ask further questions on this or any other subject, either for you personally, or your friend.

[Inca]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

I should object to being called 'White British' as I am a rather fetching shade of pink (with freckles too) and am the holder of a dual nationality passport as Mater was Canadian. And have Irish,Scottish and a smattering of Italian in the ole gene pool....

[CleverClogs]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

I... am the holder of a dual nationality passport as Mater was a Moose.

IFYPFY. :bolt:

[charitynjw]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

IFYPFY. :bolt:

Lol - I'll have to start referring to Inca as Bambi (a little dear to take on holiday!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose

[CleverClogs]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

I ... am the holder of a dual nationality passport as Mater was Canadian.

Are you actually permitted to reside in the UK or are you, like seven-year-old Jamie Leung, liable to be deported forcibly at a moment's notice to placate UKIP?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...losing-6298518

[enquirer]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

well the manager and the person who put the complaint in are really good friends, apparently they are always having conversations between themselves whilst supposedly working in urdu so she doubts the manager would want to drop him in it.

No comment, other than to again say collusion.

[charitynjw]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

I can't see from the above posts whether mysticphoenix's friend was actually accompanied by an appropriate person.

If not, & the employer failed to instruct the friend of this right, it could be grounds for automatic unfair dismissal, in which case the 2-year requirement doesn't apply.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

I can't see from the above posts whether mysticphoenix's friend was actually accompanied by an appropriate person.

If not, & the employer failed to instruct the friend of this right, it could be grounds for automatic unfair dismissal, in which case the 2-year requirement doesn't apply.

It looks like she wasn't:

well my friend had her disciplinary today, after a 2 hour meting they sacked her, for using the word paki they omitted the swear word as she completely denied using it especially since only a couple of weeks ago they had a team meeting due to certain members of the team swearing and it being heard in the background of other peoples calls.

even though the witnesses had a week to get their stories straight whilst my friend was on holiday this was still classed as a proper process. she also pointed out that she hadn't received written notice of any investigation or been asked if she would like someone to accompany her into any of the investigatory meetings as per their company policy.

They have told her she has 5 days in which to lodge an appeal, but she has said that it probably isn't worth the hassle, and most likely won't change anything.

Her complaint has not yet been dealt with and now they have dismissed her probably won't although they did state that his conduct would be investigated seperately i very much doubt it.

[des8]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

In post 18 Mysticphoenix stated "she has been told she can invite a colleague to accompany her" to the disciplinary hearing.
This was apparently in a telephone call which now, contrary to an assurance given, seems not to have been confirmed in writing.

[mysticphoenix666]

Re: help for a friend with no internet, regarding racism accusation

it was the meetings prior to the disciplinary that according to their policies she was entitled to a colleague/union rep present that she was not told of.

Any way just for an update, my friend received her paperwork today and has written a letter of appeal which i will post at the bottom of this but she ahs asked of it makes any difference that she should of received it on friday via recorded mail but was not available to sign for it and only managed to collect it today from the PO. as she only has 5 working days to reply.

Also underneath is her letter of appeal would you say this was an adequate appeal letter or does it need amending:

Dear ,



On the 12^th November 2013 I was informed that under ********* Disciplinary procedures my employment was to be terminated with immediate effect due to “The use of discriminatory language in the workplace”


I apologies for the delay in sending this letter but I did not receive the Employment Termination letter until today (19/11/13).

I would like to appeal against the decision to terminate my employment.

I would like to ask that this matter be looked at again as I feel that I have been unfairly treated in respect of the original accusation. Although I understand that what I said was inappropriate I don’t believe it was a serious enough offence to warrant my employment to be terminated.

I believe that had another party made the comment that I was accused of the situation would have been different and the aggrieved party would not have placed a grievance in the first place, and had it been any of the persons mentioned in the witness statement it would of just been ignored or been dealt with in an informal manner.

I also wish to make it known that the persons whose statements led to my dismissal in the first instance had every opportunity in which to collude with each other prior to making their statements so the truth could be blurred to suit, whereas I was on holiday for a week and had no opportunity to discuss the matter with anyone and on my return was told I could not discuss the matter with my colleagues. The other parties were not told this.

I would like to ask that my previous work and disciplinary record (although only short) be taken into account to show that I have not been in this or any situation prior to this offence and that based on my character would not be in anyway a risk of repeating this. The context this word was used In I believed at the time to be correct and not discriminatory in any way, but I do now understand that due to the background around this term it is always likely to cause offense and would like to apologies in full to all members of the company to which it would cause harm.

Yours sincerely