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Plumber - Contract

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  • Yvette123
    started a topic Plumber - Contract

    Plumber - Contract

    Hope somebody can advise me here, please.

    My tenant had a problem with a plumbing and I said that I would send somebody around to fix it.

    He said that he knew a plumber and did I want him to get me a quote? I said yes.

    Tenant said that plumber quoted £120. I said that was OK if he could do it at that price.

    Tenant says that work was done, but problem was not fixed, and then said that plumber actually charged him £280, and is demanding payment, and has sent me a letter threatening court action. There was never any discussion of him paying the plumber directly, he won't send me a copy of any paperwork from the plumber, or any other proof of payment, or tell me which plumber he used.

    I have inspected the work and it does seem that something was done, but it looks like a bodge job to me and has not fixed the problem.

    I have now had another plumber quote for the job, for over £300.

    My problem is understanding who I have a contract with, and whether I am liable to the tenant (for either £120 or £280).

    Can anybody provide any clarification please?
    Tags: None

  • ostell
    replied
    He is not permitted to just provide the paperwork at court,

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Hello.

    I just wondered if anybody had any thoughts on the start of my defence drafting above.

    Also, I wondered if anybody could please advise on the impact of the CPR 31.14 letter, if the tenant continues to refuse to provide the information.

    If he eventually provides paperwork to the court, does it matter if he did not provide it (and actually refused to provide it) in response to the letter?

    If he does now provide something to me, and I agree to pay him (either the £120 or £283, or some other figure) will I therefore be admitting liability to the claim, and what does that do in terms of the claim and judgement and costs?

    Or, does my liability only begin once he actually provides me with the paperwork? So can I see "I agree that I liable from today, but I was not liable when you started the claim, so your claim should not succeed"?

    What should be straightforward becomes very complicated, just because I don't understand the court process.






    Last edited by Yvette123; 22nd March 2019, 15:27:PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied

    Thank you.

    If the tenant continues to refuse to name the plumber or provide the paperwork, do you think I would be better

    1) Trying to get the court to compel him to do so, or
    2) Simply going to the final hearing and pointing out that it hasn't been provided

    I am concerned that if I simply defend and let it go all the way, he might try to pass something off at the hearing, and that I would also not be able to issue a counter claim against the plumber.

    I am going to start trying to draft something.

    Do I state that:

    a) He has failed to prove his loss by failing to provide the paperwork
    b) He is not entitled to £283 because only £120 was agreed
    c) That he is not entitled to the £120 because the work has not been completed, and so should not have made any payment
    d) That there was an agency agreement between us

    Leave a comment:


  • charitynjw
    replied
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ion/15/enacted

    15 Exemptions etc

    (1)Schedules 2, 3 and 4 make provision for exemptions from, and restrictions and adaptations of the application of, rules of the GDPR.

    (2)In Schedule 2—

    (a)Part 1 makes provision adapting or restricting the application of rules contained in Articles 13 to 21 and 34 of the GDPR in specified circumstances, as allowed for by Article 6(3) and Article 23(1) of the GDPR;

    (b)Part 2 makes provision restricting the application of rules contained in Articles 13 to 21 and 34 of the GDPR in specified circumstances, as allowed for by Article 23(1) of the GDPR;


    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...dule/2/enacted

    SCHEDULE 2
    Exemptions etc from the GDPR

    Information required to be disclosed by law etc or in connection with legal proceedings

    5(3)The listed GDPR provisions do not apply to personal data where disclosure of the data—

    (a)is necessary for the purpose of, or in connection with, legal proceedings (including prospective legal proceedings),

    (b)is necessary for the purpose of obtaining legal advice, or

    (c)is otherwise necessary for the purposes of establishing, exercising or defending legal rights,

    to the extent that the application of those provisions would prevent the controller from making the disclosure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Thank you for all your help. Just to answer your points.

    Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
    So have to ask, DID he show you them when you went round ? I'd guess at NO but just be be certain.
    No, absolutely not. Also, he is refusing to even name the plumber, again claiming that he can't do so because of GDPR, but I can only assume that if he had an invoice, it would have the plumber's details on it (and he claims to have shown that to me).

    Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
    Dont respond to his email for a couple days ..let him have a ponder .... might be a good idea to stick to hard copy anyway - more formal that way. Let's have a think anyway asvto next step...


    OK, I will leave for now.


    Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
    overview then...

    there was a plumbing issue ( you were away )
    he asked if he could get a plumber in
    you asked for a quote
    he said £120 quote
    you said go ahead
    he came back and said £298 but provided no evidence or invoice / receipt
    plus the work wasn't done to a plumber standard ( in your opinion)
    youve had a proper quote to rectify and fix original issue of £xxxx ( have you got that in writing? )

    happy to reimburse him for the original plumber but you need plumbers details for records/vat/evidence and to potentially take up the shoddy work with the plumber.


    Yes that's all correct. The only clarifications I would make are that I live away from the property permanently, and I originally offered to get somebody in, but tenant suggested that he knew somebody who could do it. Also, I do have the rectification quote in writing. When the tenant told me that he wouldn't give me the name of the plumber, I asked him to ask the plumber to come back himself, but he refused to do so, until I paid him the full amount (which is £283).


    The only other thing I would say is that I don't feel that I should have to pay more than the originally quote £120 as the tenant never came back to notify me of an increase, but I'm not sure where I stand on that legally.




    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    So have to ask, DID he show you them when you went round ? I'd guess at NO but just be be certain.

    Dont respond to his email for a couple days ..let him have a ponder .... might be a good idea to stick to hard copy anyway - more formal that way. Let's have a think anyway asvto next step...


    overview then...

    there was a plumbing issue ( you were away )
    he asked if he could get a plumber in
    you asked for a quote
    he said £120 quote
    you said go ahead
    he came back and said £298 but provided no evidence or invoice / receipt
    plus the work wasn't done to a plumber standard ( in your opinion)
    youve had a proper quote to rectify and fix original issue of £xxxx ( have you got that in writing? )

    happy to reimburse him for the original plumber but you need plumbers details for records/vat/evidence and to potentially take up the shoddy work with the plumber.


    On the downside from your end - not asking for the quote in writing and checking out the proposed tradesman beforehand ....

    ummm yip that's it everything else is against the tenant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    I received a response to my email this evening. He said:

    I am not sure why you are sending this to me when you know that I have shown them to you when you came around. I can bring them to court with me. It would be better if you just pay me what you owe me now and then this can stop. Why should I have to pay and then you not pay me back.
    I appreciate that he has more time to reconsider his position, but it does not sound as if he is planning to send me anything.

    Are there any other steps that I can take, or should I just focus on drafting a defence?

    I did some reading on CPR 31.14 and I saw that it may mean he cannot use the documents in court (not that I think they exist), but I have also read various articles which state that the judges can be very lenient with applying the rules in the small claims court.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    Once you have acknowledged the claim you have to the 15th ish of April to file any defence and/or counterclaim. ( it's 28 days from service - 33 from issue - but I've played it safe with the defence date -if the claimant has used the new beta online system then when you acknowledge it should tell you the relevant date ). Counterclaim goes in at same time of defence.

    so you have plenty of time ... issuing a claim is ridiculously easy with the new system and costs are low ( it would have cost him £25 to issue the claim ) so possibly he's panicked about you insisting on the invoice and thought a court claim would get him out the pickle and stress you into paying him.

    just make sure you acknowledge it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Thank you.

    So far I have only gotten as far as getting a quote from the other plumber, but I do not understand the defence and counter claim process very well and how much time I have to do these things. Would I simply defend for now and then only counter claim once the work was done, or do I have to counter claim at the same time I defend?

    With the tenant agreeing to 14 days before I fully replied and promising to provide the invoice I thought I would have chance to get better prepared but obviously he has pushed this forward so now feel like I am scrambling a bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    You had to get another plumber in to rectify - you presumably have all the paperwork (invoice/receipt/quote etc) / pictures etc from that? ( showing the terrible job the previous 'plumber' did and the work your plumber had to do to fix his work ? )

    If the 'plumber' IS the tenant it should be quite straightforward. See if he carries on with the claim once he realises he will have to produce the invoice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Thank you very much.

    I am going to send the letter off today and I will also send it in an email. I will also do the acknowledgement.

    I have had a read about the process of defending. I notice that there is also the possibility of counter claiming.

    At the moment, I do not know the identity of the plumber (or if he even exists) so I cannot counterclaim for the rectification against him.

    If the tenant continues to refuse to identify the plumber, is there any way that I can counter claim against the tenant instead?

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    Presumably as a landlord you would be reclaiming the VAT on the bill so you require it for that purpose in any event.


    1) Acknowledge the claim with intent to defend in full.

    2) Send a formal letter requesting copies of the relevant documents.


    Address

    date

    Address


    Claim Ref:

    Dear Mr xxxxx

    Request for copies of documents mentioned in a statement of case pursuant to CPR 31.14

    I am in receipt of the claim issued by you on xx March 2019 . I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

    To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on 15th April 2019.

    Please provide a copy of the invoice, receipt and photographs mentioned in your claim particulars. As you are fully aware, you have failed to produce an invoice despite having been asked on numerous occassions prior to your issuance of this claim, a matter which will be bought to the Courts attention should this progress to a hearing, particulary regarding any costs award.

    As Defendant, I am entitled to see the documents on which your cases relies and which you must produce at trial. Disclosure at this stage will enable me to fully plead my case and further the Overriding Objective. You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter.


    Kind regards

    xxxxx


    3) go from there Defence / Offer / Mediation wise.

    Leave a comment:


  • charitynjw
    replied
    Originally posted by Yvette123 View Post
    Yes, exactly £120.

    The email from the tenant states:



    My email back to him states:



    There was no mention about who was to make payment. Is it implied that I am agreeing for the tenant to make payment to the plumber?
    No way!

    You have said "Go ahead at the agreed quote".

    If that amount was substantially different, they (tenant) should have come back to you for authorisation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Yes, exactly £120.

    The email from the tenant states:

    The guy says that he can do the work on Friday and it will be £120
    My email back to him states:

    If he can do it for that price, that is fine.
    There was no mention about who was to make payment. Is it implied that I am agreeing for the tenant to make payment to the plumber?

    Leave a comment:

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