Plumber - Contract

[Yvette123]

Hope somebody can advise me here, please.

My tenant had a problem with a plumbing and I said that I would send somebody around to fix it.

He said that he knew a plumber and did I want him to get me a quote? I said yes.

Tenant said that plumber quoted £120. I said that was OK if he could do it at that price.

Tenant says that work was done, but problem was not fixed, and then said that plumber actually charged him £280, and is demanding payment, and has sent me a letter threatening court action. There was never any discussion of him paying the plumber directly, he won't send me a copy of any paperwork from the plumber, or any other proof of payment, or tell me which plumber he used.

I have inspected the work and it does seem that something was done, but it looks like a bodge job to me and has not fixed the problem.

I have now had another plumber quote for the job, for over £300.

My problem is understanding who I have a contract with, and whether I am liable to the tenant (for either £120 or £280).

Can anybody provide any clarification please?

[charitynjw]

Hi & welcome

Your 'agreement' with tenant.....written or oral?'

[Yvette123]

Hi. It was in an email exchange.

He described the problem, said that a plumber he knew could do it for that amount, I said it was OK if the plumber could do it for that amount.

Given the quality of the work, and the refusal to even tell me the name of the plumber, I suspect that the tenant might have attempted it himself, but I cannot prove that.

[james_law]

If you have an email exchange that states £120, then that is what you owe potentially.

First of all I would want the name of the plumber to confirm this work was done by him/her before handing over any money to your tenant.

Not meant in a malicious way but never let the tenant sort anything, you need to know the plumber, know that that plumber did the work and what you are being charged. By you sorting this yourself then there is no issue.

To me it sounds like your tenant is trying to ''get one over on you''.

[des8]

If the tenant wants payment he needs to prove he has paid (basically a receipted invoice).
On the basis you have an agency agreement with the tenant you could then take action against the plumber under Consumer Rights Act 2015

[Yvette123]

If the tenant wants payment he needs to prove he has paid (basically a receipted invoice).
On the basis you have an agency agreement with the tenant you could then take action against the plumber under Consumer Rights Act 2015

Thank you.

I have had an email exchange with the tenant over the weekend, asking him to send me the invoice and tell me the name of the plumber. I said I would respond fully to his letter of claim in the next 14 days.

He said that was fine, said that he will send the invoice, but can't give me the name of the plumber due to GDPR.

I would think that the number of the plumber should be on the invoice, but I guess I will see what comes through.

Is he legally obliged to tell me the name of the plumber?

[charitynjw]

https://hsfnotes.com/litigation/2017...of-litigation/

He's talking tosh, of course.
It's very unlikely that he is 'processing' info in way that would expose him to the DPA/GDPR.

If he takes you to court, what would he say when the judge asked him who the plumber is?

"Ah, I could tell you that.....but then I'd have to kill you!"

[Amethyst]

If he engaged the services of and paid a plumber to do work on your property on your behalf then for you to pay the plumber ( or reimburse him for paying the plumber) then he will need to produce the invoice for the work.

GDPR is a terrible excuse not to produce an invoice ( and seems likely that said plumber doesn't exist). A plumber is a tradesman acting in the course of business - not an individual. If he attempted the fix himself and lied about a plumber and he's just made the issue worse you could potentially have a claim against him for your costs of rectifying it and getting it properly fixed.

[Yvette123]

Thank you for all of the help you have given me so far.

You can imagine my surprise when I received a court claim form this morning from "In the County Court Business Centre - Online Civil Money Claims"

In Section 3 - Claim it says

The defendant is my landlady and agreed to pay me back for money that I paid out for plumbing work done at her house. I paid £283 and have an invoice and receipt. I have shown these to my landlady and I can send them to the court if I need to. I also have photos taken before and after the plumbing was done. I have asked for payment but she has refused to pay me back.

The papers state that the claim was submitted at 9:46pm on Sunday and issued on Monday.

This is despite the fact that the tenant has not sent me any paperwork (and his claim of showing it to me is completely false), and also despite the fact that he stated in an email on Saturday that 1) he would send the invoice and 2) he acknowledged that I would respond to him in 14 days.

Is there anything that I can do apart from simply defend the claim?

If the court do end up awarding him something, will I have much chance of avoiding paying costs, due to the way that he has gone about this?

[charitynjw]

You said you have emails which prove the original amount was circa £120?

[Yvette123]

Yes, exactly £120.

The email from the tenant states:

The guy says that he can do the work on Friday and it will be £120

My email back to him states:

If he can do it for that price, that is fine.

There was no mention about who was to make payment. Is it implied that I am agreeing for the tenant to make payment to the plumber?

[charitynjw]

Yes, exactly £120.

The email from the tenant states:



My email back to him states:



There was no mention about who was to make payment. Is it implied that I am agreeing for the tenant to make payment to the plumber?

No way!

You have said "Go ahead at the agreed quote".

If that amount was substantially different, they (tenant) should have come back to you for authorisation.

[Amethyst]

Presumably as a landlord you would be reclaiming the VAT on the bill so you require it for that purpose in any event.


1) Acknowledge the claim with intent to defend in full.

2) Send a formal letter requesting copies of the relevant documents.


Address

date

Address


Claim Ref:

Dear Mr xxxxx

Request for copies of documents mentioned in a statement of case pursuant to CPR 31.14

I am in receipt of the claim issued by you on xx March 2019 . I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on 15th April 2019.

Please provide a copy of the invoice, receipt and photographs mentioned in your claim particulars. As you are fully aware, you have failed to produce an invoice despite having been asked on numerous occassions prior to your issuance of this claim, a matter which will be bought to the Courts attention should this progress to a hearing, particulary regarding any costs award.

As Defendant, I am entitled to see the documents on which your cases relies and which you must produce at trial. Disclosure at this stage will enable me to fully plead my case and further the Overriding Objective. You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter.


Kind regards

xxxxx


3) go from there Defence / Offer / Mediation wise.

[Yvette123]

Thank you very much.

I am going to send the letter off today and I will also send it in an email. I will also do the acknowledgement.

I have had a read about the process of defending. I notice that there is also the possibility of counter claiming.

At the moment, I do not know the identity of the plumber (or if he even exists) so I cannot counterclaim for the rectification against him.

If the tenant continues to refuse to identify the plumber, is there any way that I can counter claim against the tenant instead?

[Amethyst]

You had to get another plumber in to rectify - you presumably have all the paperwork (invoice/receipt/quote etc) / pictures etc from that? ( showing the terrible job the previous 'plumber' did and the work your plumber had to do to fix his work ? )

If the 'plumber' IS the tenant it should be quite straightforward. See if he carries on with the claim once he realises he will have to produce the invoice.