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Plumber - Contract

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  • Yvette123
    replied
    I received a response to my email this evening. He said:

    I am not sure why you are sending this to me when you know that I have shown them to you when you came around. I can bring them to court with me. It would be better if you just pay me what you owe me now and then this can stop. Why should I have to pay and then you not pay me back.
    I appreciate that he has more time to reconsider his position, but it does not sound as if he is planning to send me anything.

    Are there any other steps that I can take, or should I just focus on drafting a defence?

    I did some reading on CPR 31.14 and I saw that it may mean he cannot use the documents in court (not that I think they exist), but I have also read various articles which state that the judges can be very lenient with applying the rules in the small claims court.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    Once you have acknowledged the claim you have to the 15th ish of April to file any defence and/or counterclaim. ( it's 28 days from service - 33 from issue - but I've played it safe with the defence date -if the claimant has used the new beta online system then when you acknowledge it should tell you the relevant date ). Counterclaim goes in at same time of defence.

    so you have plenty of time ... issuing a claim is ridiculously easy with the new system and costs are low ( it would have cost him £25 to issue the claim ) so possibly he's panicked about you insisting on the invoice and thought a court claim would get him out the pickle and stress you into paying him.

    just make sure you acknowledge it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Thank you.

    So far I have only gotten as far as getting a quote from the other plumber, but I do not understand the defence and counter claim process very well and how much time I have to do these things. Would I simply defend for now and then only counter claim once the work was done, or do I have to counter claim at the same time I defend?

    With the tenant agreeing to 14 days before I fully replied and promising to provide the invoice I thought I would have chance to get better prepared but obviously he has pushed this forward so now feel like I am scrambling a bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    You had to get another plumber in to rectify - you presumably have all the paperwork (invoice/receipt/quote etc) / pictures etc from that? ( showing the terrible job the previous 'plumber' did and the work your plumber had to do to fix his work ? )

    If the 'plumber' IS the tenant it should be quite straightforward. See if he carries on with the claim once he realises he will have to produce the invoice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Thank you very much.

    I am going to send the letter off today and I will also send it in an email. I will also do the acknowledgement.

    I have had a read about the process of defending. I notice that there is also the possibility of counter claiming.

    At the moment, I do not know the identity of the plumber (or if he even exists) so I cannot counterclaim for the rectification against him.

    If the tenant continues to refuse to identify the plumber, is there any way that I can counter claim against the tenant instead?

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    Presumably as a landlord you would be reclaiming the VAT on the bill so you require it for that purpose in any event.


    1) Acknowledge the claim with intent to defend in full.

    2) Send a formal letter requesting copies of the relevant documents.


    Address

    date

    Address


    Claim Ref:

    Dear Mr xxxxx

    Request for copies of documents mentioned in a statement of case pursuant to CPR 31.14

    I am in receipt of the claim issued by you on xx March 2019 . I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

    To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on 15th April 2019.

    Please provide a copy of the invoice, receipt and photographs mentioned in your claim particulars. As you are fully aware, you have failed to produce an invoice despite having been asked on numerous occassions prior to your issuance of this claim, a matter which will be bought to the Courts attention should this progress to a hearing, particulary regarding any costs award.

    As Defendant, I am entitled to see the documents on which your cases relies and which you must produce at trial. Disclosure at this stage will enable me to fully plead my case and further the Overriding Objective. You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter.


    Kind regards

    xxxxx


    3) go from there Defence / Offer / Mediation wise.

    Leave a comment:


  • charitynjw
    replied
    Originally posted by Yvette123 View Post
    Yes, exactly £120.

    The email from the tenant states:



    My email back to him states:



    There was no mention about who was to make payment. Is it implied that I am agreeing for the tenant to make payment to the plumber?
    No way!

    You have said "Go ahead at the agreed quote".

    If that amount was substantially different, they (tenant) should have come back to you for authorisation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Yes, exactly £120.

    The email from the tenant states:

    The guy says that he can do the work on Friday and it will be £120
    My email back to him states:

    If he can do it for that price, that is fine.
    There was no mention about who was to make payment. Is it implied that I am agreeing for the tenant to make payment to the plumber?

    Leave a comment:


  • charitynjw
    replied
    You said you have emails which prove the original amount was circa £120?

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Thank you for all of the help you have given me so far.

    You can imagine my surprise when I received a court claim form this morning from "In the County Court Business Centre - Online Civil Money Claims"

    In Section 3 - Claim it says

    The defendant is my landlady and agreed to pay me back for money that I paid out for plumbing work done at her house. I paid £283 and have an invoice and receipt. I have shown these to my landlady and I can send them to the court if I need to. I also have photos taken before and after the plumbing was done. I have asked for payment but she has refused to pay me back.
    The papers state that the claim was submitted at 9:46pm on Sunday and issued on Monday.

    This is despite the fact that the tenant has not sent me any paperwork (and his claim of showing it to me is completely false), and also despite the fact that he stated in an email on Saturday that 1) he would send the invoice and 2) he acknowledged that I would respond to him in 14 days.

    Is there anything that I can do apart from simply defend the claim?

    If the court do end up awarding him something, will I have much chance of avoiding paying costs, due to the way that he has gone about this?

    Leave a comment:


  • Amethyst
    replied
    If he engaged the services of and paid a plumber to do work on your property on your behalf then for you to pay the plumber ( or reimburse him for paying the plumber) then he will need to produce the invoice for the work.

    GDPR is a terrible excuse not to produce an invoice ( and seems likely that said plumber doesn't exist). A plumber is a tradesman acting in the course of business - not an individual. If he attempted the fix himself and lied about a plumber and he's just made the issue worse you could potentially have a claim against him for your costs of rectifying it and getting it properly fixed.

    Leave a comment:


  • charitynjw
    replied
    https://hsfnotes.com/litigation/2017...of-litigation/

    He's talking tosh, of course.
    It's very unlikely that he is 'processing' info in way that would expose him to the DPA/GDPR.

    If he takes you to court, what would he say when the judge asked him who the plumber is?

    "Ah, I could tell you that.....but then I'd have to kill you!"
    Last edited by charitynjw; 18th March 2019, 11:46:AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yvette123
    replied
    Originally posted by des8 View Post
    If the tenant wants payment he needs to prove he has paid (basically a receipted invoice).
    On the basis you have an agency agreement with the tenant you could then take action against the plumber under Consumer Rights Act 2015
    Thank you.

    I have had an email exchange with the tenant over the weekend, asking him to send me the invoice and tell me the name of the plumber. I said I would respond fully to his letter of claim in the next 14 days.

    He said that was fine, said that he will send the invoice, but can't give me the name of the plumber due to GDPR.

    I would think that the number of the plumber should be on the invoice, but I guess I will see what comes through.

    Is he legally obliged to tell me the name of the plumber?

    Leave a comment:


  • des8
    replied
    If the tenant wants payment he needs to prove he has paid (basically a receipted invoice).
    On the basis you have an agency agreement with the tenant you could then take action against the plumber under Consumer Rights Act 2015

    Leave a comment:


  • james_law
    replied
    If you have an email exchange that states £120, then that is what you owe potentially.

    First of all I would want the name of the plumber to confirm this work was done by him/her before handing over any money to your tenant.

    Not meant in a malicious way but never let the tenant sort anything, you need to know the plumber, know that that plumber did the work and what you are being charged. By you sorting this yourself then there is no issue.

    To me it sounds like your tenant is trying to ''get one over on you''.

    Leave a comment:

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