8 year old CCJ and charging order on current house

[Simbamk1]

2009 I lost my job and and in middle of renovating jointly owned house with my now wife. As we could not finish it and ran up arrears we moved out and into rented accommodation to hand back keys before it was repossessed.

I instructed them in writing to repossess voluntarily and we continued to rent for 8 years until back on our feet. We have purchased another house and within 18months this company TBI financial began writing to me. I followed the 3 letter process and on the last letter had no response. About 5 months later I receive an interim charging order, I was not aware a CCJ had been awarded for repossession back in early 2010 as I had voluntarily repossessed (or so I thought).

Interim charging order was awarded and I went to hearing first week of January 2018 to try and fight my case. District judge was no very nice at all and stated I needed to apply to have original judgement set aside.

TBI are using a legal firm called Rippon and Patchell and I have advised them there is no equity at all in property and no because of the charging order I am innegative equity. I made a cheeky offer of £2k in full and final settlement and they came back asking for 12k which is 50% of the £24k being claimed.

Documents produced in the 3 letter process included a deed of confirmation of assignment where they took on all of Webb Resolutions debt accounts in the form of a CD and a second page which TBI have nots my agreement number.

No agreement has been provided yet when challenging the Solicitors they make reference to a legally binding agreement for the shortfall. They have not produced any agreement or mortgage documents.

The only mortgage document they have produced was an “application form” for the mortgage introducer that my wife actually worked for at the time. No mortgage offer or contract and they state it is not covered under CCA.

The first I ever saw of the CCJ for possession with a money order attached was 8 years after when TBI wrote to me and sent me a copy. The mortgage statement they have given is on non headed paper basically just plain paper with amounts on it.

The interim charging order was a form K restriction as I am sole owner as wife’s name not on mortgage. I have had the final charging order through the post last week.

My question is will I be successful if I pay £255 to have this set aside and revert back to claim stage and would they be able to apply again to courts and then in turn I am stung with a CCJ? My credit is clear now and I have worked hard to get back on feet. We were getting house ready to sell in the summer to move and now we are trapped. We bought it to do up and gain a little equity to put down on a nicer house and now all the equity is gone due to charging order. House is worth 85k mortgage is 74k and we have now got a £24k 3rd charge (7k is a secured loan over 5 years which I was going to pay in full with a bonus and my pay this year, but now I am nervous to do so as it would mean more equity).

They have produced old email and screenshots of Webb’s customer account contacts and etc. Which don’t really show anything.

Documents provided so far are:

order for possession in name of Webb Resolutions dated 16 June 2010 (was unaware of this ever happening)
credot solve live statement of account on plain paper
Mortgage introducer generic application form completed by my wife whilst working in mortgage brokers - not an agreement or contract with associated t&c’s
imterim charging order which the land registry state was a form K restriction (joint debt but house in my sole name)
Final charging order for £24k ( is this still a restriction and am I legally obliged to pay them from proceeds)
Numerous letters from TBI financial and Rippon patchell



Many thanks

[Amethyst]

Morning, Have you sent a subject access request to the original lender?
( Picture ? GMAC ? assigned to Webb R.? ) That may be a good start for more indepth information that you currently have.

When you wrote to the mortgage lender to tell them to reposess the property, did you give them your new address ?

Have you investigated how much the house sold for following the reposession ? Was there a shortfall ? ( also consider fees/sale charges etc but an idea of how much it sold for is a good starting point - possibly also costs of completion of the work that had been started and left midway )

Diana M

pt2537

[Simbamk1]

Hi thanks for reply.

the mortgage was with GMAC and transferred to Webb I made Webb aware of the change of address but TBI and their Solicitors are stating Webb were not aware. Webb on 14th Feb 2017 sold all their rights title and interests of accounts detailed in the schedule of accounts in the form of a CD (compact disc). This was written on a deed of confirmation of assignment (one page document). A second page of the document was added by TBI financial which states my name and an account number and someone from TBI certifying that it was an extract of the schedule.

i Know how much property was sold for as 2 friends of mine lived in house till recently. I have also lived within 500 metres of the old house for over 3 years! There was a shortfall, but Rippon Patchell keep referring to a legally binding agreement for the shortfall - I have requested this but they have not provided. The referred me back to the mortgage introducer application form.

Do you think a set aside application would be successful and the take it back to claim stage and fight the case?

[Simbamk1]

I haven’t sent a SARS to GMAC the original lender. Should I ? Are there any Solicitors on this forum that will handle this case for me? Looking to understand costs of challenging them. It is really causing a lot of stress as we were going to move in a few months due to work. We are looking at prospect now of having to save and buy another house or even have to rent somewhere as I need to relocate for work. The small amount of equity in house was enough for another desposit but nothing else.

[jaguarsuk]

Yes, send an SAR to GMAC because then you can see what documentation actually exists. If you apply to have the judgement set aside then you'll be able to compare documents you have with those you are sent by the claimant to ensure that everything tallies up.

As you have the judgement number (should be on the paperwork to apply for the charging order) you should be able to get a copy of the originally filed claim to see what the particulars of claim say. Ring Northampton County Court Business Centre on 0300 123 1056 to see what they can send you.

[Simbamk1]

Hi thank you.

I have a copy of the original possession order it was sent to the address I had moved out of 9 months before. The hearing was held in neath Port talbot courts which was not my home court as I lived in Cardiff. It was a default judgement as I was not made aware I was unable to submit a defence.

i have written to TBI’s Solicitors asking for consent to apply to set aside stating the reasons etc. The possession order states on line 2 “the defendant pay the claimant £80,445.98 being the amount outstanding under the mortgage, and there be judgement for the claimant for this sum, not to be enforced without leave”


I have no idea how it was £80,445 as original mortgage was £75k and was paid correctly until I was made redundant. House was sold for £61.5k but the statement provided shows only £57.8k was paid towards mortgage balance. I don’t have any particulars on valuations, price etc just what they have thrown at me now and further charges were added after the sale.

Are there any recommended lawyers for this and is there an indication of how much challenging this would cost? Or any template letters I can send. Will GMAC really still have details more than 9 years after transferring / selling mortgage to Webb?

thanks again

[jaguarsuk]

Hi thank you.

I have a copy of the original possession order it was sent to the address I had moved out of 9 months before. The hearing was held in neath Port talbot courts which was not my home court as I lived in Cardiff. It was a default judgement as I was not made aware I was unable to submit a defence.

i have written to TBI’s Solicitors asking for consent to apply to set aside stating the reasons etc. The possession order states on line 2 “the defendant pay the claimant £80,445.98 being the amount outstanding under the mortgage, and there be judgement for the claimant for this sum, not to be enforced without leave”


I have no idea how it was £80,445 as original mortgage was £75k and was paid correctly until I was made redundant. House was sold for £61.5k but the statement provided shows only £57.8k was paid towards mortgage balance. I don’t have any particulars on valuations, price etc just what they have thrown at me now and further charges were added after the sale.

Are there any recommended lawyers for this and is there an indication of how much challenging this would cost? Or any template letters I can send. Will GMAC really still have details more than 9 years after transferring / selling mortgage to Webb?

thanks again

Sorry I should have been more clear, the application for the charging order was enforcement of another judgement. Do you have the documentation of the judgement they were applying to be enforced? (such as Claim Form & General Notice of Judgement form)

GMAC will have assigned the debt to TBI in doing so they may have given TBI all the documents they need and they may not. If they haven't and GMAC can't produce the documents for your SAR how can they produce them for TBI if the judgement is set aside and you defend the claim?

It's best to just send it in and see what if anything they have got, plus you don't know what else it might turn up or other information it might contain that becomes relevant at the time.

I can't recommend any solicitors or advise on costs, Diana M is an authorised representative at a Solicitors firm and it may be worth asking her those questions?

[Diana M]

I couldn't help noticing that this situation began in 2009 which was the same year the FSA (now FCA) fined GMAC £2.8 million for their unfair treatment of mortgage borrowers in arrears. The fine would have been £4 million but it was reduced because GMAC cooperated.

The FSA sanction required them to compensate those borrowers whose homes had been repossessed. I was told at the time that GMAC had not managed to contact all those borrowers because they didn't have their ongoing contact details. Unsurprisingly borrowers who had had their homes repossessed (voluntarily or otherwise) were not making their new whereabouts known when they moved out. The total amount of 'redress' payments due were estimated as £7.7 million at the time (2009).

Perhaps a starting point would be to establish whether you would have been due compensation although I have no idea whether your account would have been eligible so don't raise your hopes. However the way the mortgage was 'sold' and managed may need revisiting.

Read the FSA sanction here > https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/f...s/gmac_rfc.pdf

When a property is subject to 'Voluntary Repossession' then there is not usually court hearing with the borrower present since the keys (possession) have been handed back to the lender.

The borrower normally signs a document agreeing to repay any shortfall. It's standard practice but it may not have happened in your case.

After that the lender will still charge for the monthly loan repayments due, buildings insurance, arrears charges etc up until the property is sold.

Shelter explains the process here > https://england.shelter.org.uk/housi..._back_the_keys

Did you have a MIG (Motgage Indemnity Guarantee)? In my experience GMAC insisted on a MIG which meant that in the event of a mortgage shortfall following repossession the insurance policy paid GMAC and then the insurer chased the borrower. With a MIG in place the lender can't lose if/when a property is sold under market value.

GMAC was warehouse lender which brings in all sorts of complications.

Basically a mortgage broker completed the application process and then passed the information to a packager who carried out the underwriting and then passed the completed package to GMAC's underwriters to sign off. Most (almost all) GMAC mortgages had been pre-sold to mainstream lenders who took over the account within weeks, usually after only one direct debit payment (because GMAC was a warehouse lender).

So you'll need to do lots of background research to find out what went on in your particular situation.

The procedure you face will not be the same as seeking to set aside an ordinary county court default judgment.

Di

[Simbamk1]

Thank you I will look into this and submit the sars.

GMAC sold it on to Webb whilst we were in trouble with mortgage. Should I send the SARS to GMAC or Webb?

I have had no claim forms or anything else relating to the possession order CCJ other than the order for possession. I have never seen anything else.

I have some file notes from TBI’s Solicitors that Webb have forwarded them which appear to be from Webb’s CRM software the notes state that I requested voluntary repossession and on same note internal conversation asking if the property could be placed on their block insurance.

the response to the block insurance question was as follows “ Hi ingrid this property is already on our block insurance kind regards (therefore no further action required by mandate team at this time until further update is supplied by repo)”

this is was 29/07/2010 month after the default possession order was granted. Then it was routed to CGMIT and then routed to CGLIT.

I did not sign any document regarding voluntary repossession and instructed them in writing which is confirmed in the file notes they have given me.

thanks again for your help, should I look to instruct a lawyer, how much would a case like this roughly cost.

[Simbamk1]

How would I go about checking whether I was part of the GMAC issue?

[Simbamk1]

I can’t even find contact details for Webb Resolutions ?

[Simbamk1]

Checked the statement provided to me by TBI and it clearly shows excessive “arrears management charges” and various other charges such as non payment by direct debit. On occasions where I could only pay £50 or so towards my mortgage they were charging me £50 which obviously made things far worse. Their actions obviously contributed to the voluntary repossession. How would be best to pursue a claim against GMAC?

i have sent a sars to GMAC in Wales, Rippon Patel, TBI financial and David Jones Solicitors (basically TBI’s owner). Can’t find a website or address for Webb Resolutions.

[Diana M]

GMAC sold it on to Webb whilst we were in trouble with mortgage. Should I send the SARS to GMAC or Webb?

GMAC exited the mortgage market in 2011. They were replaced by Paratus AMC (a closed-book lender) who were recently 're-branded' Foundation Home Loans when they started lending through mortgage intermediaries.

You can send a SAR to Foundation Home Loans but the only information they may have will be up until your loan was sold to Webb Resolutions. From what you say it was Webb who repossessed you not GMAC.

Send your SAR to the Compliance Officer for Foundation Home Loans using these contact details > https://www.foundationhomeloans.co.uk/contact-us?

Webb Resolutions is a non trading company. You need to send them a SAR to get the information of the events surrounding the repossession and the events leading up to it using these contact details > https://ico.org.uk/ESDWebPages/Entry/Z157081X

Webb may be non trading but they still exist > https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06706846

Di

[Diana M]

Their actions obviously contributed to the voluntary repossession. How would be best to pursue a claim against GMAC?

GMAC didn't repossess you - that was Webb Resolutions (according to you) and it was voluntary.

In order to get the Final Charging Order I would think that TBI would need to have proved that they actually owned the debt (mortgage shortfall) in the first place. The original GMAC loan has changed hands twice(?) so there may have been assignment issues.

I see from your first post that you have sent the "three letters". I don't know which "three letters" you sent but if they were from a now defunct internet forum then they may not have done you any favours.

I doubt you'll resolve your complicated problem with a template letter.

Or any template letters I can send.

Di

[Simbamk1]

Ok thanks yes very complicated! I really appreciate your help and advice.