please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[The Debt Star]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

Hopefully it was for Woolworths

[charitynjw]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

CCTV images are allowed to be used for a variety of purposes, though there must be a notice to that effect displayed prominently.

And, of course, there must be a correct notification of that purpose on the ICO Register - failure to correctly notify with the ICO is a criminal offense (see 'special purposes' on the ICO website).

Funnily enough, lots of CCTV users seem to overlook this.....................

[CleverClogs]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

What is the penalty for failing to notify the ICO correctly or, indeed, at all?

Is there a penalty at all and, if there is, when was it last applied?

[gaz2006]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

My friend and partner recently went to asda with their small child were stopped by 2 security guards and told they had been twice before and didnt pay for goods ie shoplifting . They were taken to holding room and told to pay the amounts think it was around £40 they both said it wasnt true and asked to see cctv but refused being told that was only shown in court. The police were called and they were asked to pay the £40 and have lifetime ban or be arrested . They paid the £40 , they were also told they had only been to asda these 2 times . This was upsetting for the little girl as well as the 2 adults . They were told the 2 days in question and amounts . They showed me the dates and their accounts had been debited with one exact amount they said they hadnt paid for and as lesser amount for the other .They also sowed me theyd been in asda about 30 time sin 2 months . They contacted the store manager asking for proof he refused to give it and so i helped write a letter for them to ASDA head office . The letter said it agreed with managers lifelong ban for shoplifting in any store and wouldnt give any evidence .
They still tell me they never did shoplift anything and I want to know is anything can be done to get them to disclose footage etc or this evidence they have when items were self scanned etc .
It seems unfair to me looking at the facts and in my view the shouldnt have paid the £40 but i guess they were forced into that situation .
Any advice what to do etc can a SAR be done to disclose picturs etc ? Surely they cant demand money with menaces without proof and the two are adamant all goods paid for
Regards Gary

[leclerc]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

You could try to put together a letter and send it to the CEO of ASDA.
Do they have receipts for the alleged day of the offences showing what exactly they paid for?
Have they been given details of what the allegations against them are?
Have they been convicted of any criminal offence?

Why on earth did they pay for something that they did not do?

EDIT: CEO of Asda: andy.clarke@asda.co.uk

[bluebottle]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

Unfortunately, the problem of retail security staff making allegations supported by supposed evidence that wouldn't stand up in court of a law is getting to the point where the innocent are being tarred with the same brush as the seasoned professional shoplifter.

By Section 1, Theft Act 1968, theft is defined as follows:-

A person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive the other of it.

The sections I have highlighted in coloured text are what as known as "Points to Prove". Dishonesty is subject to a two-part test prescribed by the Court of Appeal in the case of R -v- Ghosh 1982. This means that the accuser has to prove, very simply, beyond all reasonable doubt that,

a) by normal standards that any reasonable person would consider what the person accused had done was dishonest;and
b) that the person themselves by normal standards would consider what they had done to be dishonest.

If the answer to either or both parts of the test is "No", dishonesty is not proven. Any allegation of theft, therefore, fails.

Unfortunately, the training retail security staff receive is of a poor standard and, as result, those shoppers who are entirely innocent and have made genuine mistakes are branded thieves. A genuine thief will conceal goods on their person or in bags or other containers and attempt to leave without paying for the goods and have no intention of paying for the goods from the outset.

The actions of the Asda manager in refusing to allow the OP to view CCTV footage was wrong. A person is entitled to see what evidence their accuser is relying on and the accuser has a duty to allow this. As a retired police officer, my view is that the Asda manager has acted wrongfully and, quite possibly, illegally. He must show you all and any evidence he alleges he has. Asda head office are wrong also for adopting a "we stick together" attitude. If it transpires that Asda have no credible evidence or any evidence at all, the manager, Asda, the company, and its senior management could be facing charges of Fraud by False Misrepresentation (Section 2(1), Fraud Act 2006 and Section 12, Fraud Act 2006) and, possibly, Blackmail (section 21, Theft Act 1968), in respect of the manager only. Your friends would be best-advised to seek legal advice from their local Law Centre.

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

My friend and partner recently went to asda with their small child were stopped by 2 security guards and told they had been twice before and didnt pay for goods ie shoplifting . They were taken to holding room and told to pay the amounts think it was around £40 they both said it wasnt true and asked to see cctv but refused being told that was only shown in court. The police were called and they were asked to pay the £40 and have lifetime ban or be arrested . They paid the £40 , they were also told they had only been to asda these 2 times . This was upsetting for the little girl as well as the 2 adults . They were told the 2 days in question and amounts . They showed me the dates and their accounts had been debited with one exact amount they said they hadnt paid for and as lesser amount for the other .They also sowed me theyd been in asda about 30 time sin 2 months . They contacted the store manager asking for proof he refused to give it and so i helped write a letter for them to ASDA head office . The letter said it agreed with managers lifelong ban for shoplifting in any store and wouldnt give any evidence .
They still tell me they never did shoplift anything and I want to know is anything can be done to get them to disclose footage etc or this evidence they have when items were self scanned etc .
It seems unfair to me looking at the facts and in my view the shouldnt have paid the £40 but i guess they were forced into that situation .
Any advice what to do etc can a SAR be done to disclose picturs etc ? Surely they cant demand money with menaces without proof and the two are adamant all goods paid for
Regards Gary

Just ot clarify, where the police actually present when this ultimatum was made?

D

[bluebottle]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

In my considered judgement, an SAR would force Asda to disclose the CCTV footage. What your friends were told about the CCTV footage only being shown in court is total crap and I suspect Asda know this. There are statutory disclosure requirements for evidence - whether in civil or criminal cases - and Asda cannot pick and choose which requirements they are going to observe and those they are going to ignore.

Unless Asda can prove they had a right in law to demand the money and that the threats made were a proper means of enforcing the demand, the manager could be in serious trouble, as this amounts to Blackmail, which carries a maximum penalty, on conviction, of up to 14 years imprisonment. Your friends do need to speak to a legal professional about this incident and, if necessary, lay a complaint against the Asda manager either with the police or the courts.

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

But apparently on the"considered Judgement"of the police present the parties satisfied the test and were about to be arrested?
Unless i have read it wrong.

D

[gaz2006]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

SEe ***********
You could try to put together a letter and send it to the CEO of ASDA.*********** good idea i tried letter customer services waste of time
Do they have receipts for the alleged day of the offences showing what exactly they paid for? ********* Asda said it was 2 days yes receipt on one day for exact amount they were told they shoplifted for other day they have receipt for lesser amount to what they said they shoplifted ( but they say thats what they bought )
Have they been given details of what the allegations against them are?*******only when at asda two days quoted and amounts
Have they been convicted of any criminal offence?************no

Why on earth did they pay for something that they did not do?*********** ha ha you tell me i THINK THEY PANICKED THINKING THEY WERE GOING TO BE ARRESTED

EDIT: CEO of Asda: andy.clarke@asda.co.uk

[/QUOTE]

[gaz2006]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

Unfortunately, the problem of retail security staff making allegations supported by supposed evidence that wouldn't stand up in court of a law is getting to the point where the innocent are being tarred with the same brush as the seasoned professional shoplifter.

By Section 1, Theft Act 1968, theft is defined as follows:-

A person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive the other of it.

The sections I have highlighted in coloured text are what as known as "Points to Prove". Dishonesty is subject to a two-part test prescribed by the Court of Appeal in the case of R -v- Ghosh 1982. This means that the accuser has to prove, very simply, beyond all reasonable doubt that,

a) by normal standards that any reasonable person would consider what the person accused had done was dishonest;and
b) that the person themselves by normal standards would consider what they had done to be dishonest.

If the answer to either or both parts of the test is "No", dishonesty is not proven. Any allegation of theft, therefore, fails.

Unfortunately, the training retail security staff receive is of a poor standard and, as result, those shoppers who are entirely innocent and have made genuine mistakes are branded thieves. A genuine thief will conceal goods on their person or in bags or other containers and attempt to leave without paying for the goods and have no intention of paying for the goods from the outset.

The actions of the Asda manager in refusing to allow the OP to view CCTV footage was wrong. A person is entitled to see what evidence their accuser is relying on and the accuser has a duty to allow this. As a retired police officer, my view is that the Asda manager has acted wrongfully and, quite possibly, illegally. He must show you all and any evidence he alleges he has. Asda head office are wrong also for adopting a "we stick together" attitude. If it transpires that Asda have no credible evidence or any evidence at all, the manager, Asda, the company, and its senior management could be facing charges of Fraud by False Misrepresentation (Section 2(1), Fraud Act 2006 and Section 12, Fraud Act 2006) and, possibly, Blackmail (section 21, Theft Act 1968), in respect of the manager only. Your friends would be best-advised to seek legal advice from their local Law Centre.

**************** sorry may have mislead slightly it was the security who told them to pay or they would be arrested not store manager he was phoned the next day after receipts found but said only can be seen in court . There is also the case the whole episode made the little girl hysterical and crying
Do you mean say Citizens advice centre or actual solicitor ? Could I possibly write letter to ceo signed by them quoting those above acts etc as a pre warning ? regards Gary

[gaz2006]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

yes i believe police were present when this said but will check with them

[gaz2006]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=davyb;271317]But apparently on the"considered Judgement"of the police present the parties satisfied the test and were about to be arrested?
Unless i have read it wrong.
***************
I believe choice was pay the money or be arrested

[bluebottle]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

Gaz,

Can I just clarify what actually happened in your friends' case?

Are you saying that they were accused by a security bod of shoplifting, the police were called and in the presence and hearing of a police officer threatened with arrest if they didn't pay £40? Or was this threat made prior to the arrival of the police?

Even if the manager did not make the demand themselves, they are still liable because the security bod is under their control and they have a duty to ensure this sort of thing doesn't go on. As for the refusal to provide CCTV footage, both the manager and Asda head office are wrong. They are not allowed to suppress such evidence. This is enshrined in Criminal Justice Law and, also, Civil Law. Your friends need to contact their local Law Centre, not CAB, as CAB advisors are not trained in the complexities of Criminal Law. Solicitors and police officers are. I am a retired police officer and have kept up to date with changes in the law, as well as having studied other areas of English Law.

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

This is where i have the problem.
It seems to me that all the store did(although totally ham handedly) was to get the person to pay for goods they had taken.
No prosecution was forthcoming for the act, Asda can ban whoever they like from their store for whatever reason.

They will say that if they did not owe the money, why did they pay it?

As for divulging security camera footage, why would they, there has been no offense, the footage would just show many shoppers shopping.

D