Advice - Legal or Realistic?

[alham]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

And if some scumbags can be reminded that they ARE breaking the law whilst involving police only as a last measure, and one can achieve desired results then its win-win? Thus knowing once rights helps everyone -society by allowing police to concentrate on serious crimes, public by preventing unnecessary stress and businesses by reminding them that they are dealing with thinking human beings who are not simply there to be bled dry.

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

That is EXACTLY what I am getting at, Alham. The police rely heavily on the help of the public in solving crime and bringing offenders to justice. Also, what I might do is incorporate a CSI guide. All too often, well-meaning individuals inadvertently contaminate a crime scene and make the job of Forensic Scene Examiners (FSEs) more difficult as well as hampering the job of investigating officers. As you say, if it means people can help the police, all the better. It also means that minor offences can be dealt with through civil procedures, if necessary, leaving the police to deal with more serious matters.

This is consumer forum with respect not a scene from CSI.

D

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

And if some scumbags can be reminded that they ARE breaking the law whilst involving police only as a last measure, and one can achieve desired results then its win-win? Thus knowing once rights helps everyone -society by allowing police to concentrate on serious crimes, public by preventing unnecessary stress and businesses by reminding them that they are dealing with thinking human beings who are not simply there to be bled dry.

The sad fact is that there are too many businesses who feel it is acceptable to lie to the police in order to avoid or evade their legal obligations.

[alham]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

This is consumer forum with respect not a scene from CSI.

D

So if bailiff is attempting to remove your car from the shared drive instead of your neighbour's, who owes money, say, would you let them get on with it and then go through the palaver of recovery, etc... or would you point it out to them that the car belongs to you, and if they carry on with their action it will be theft, against such and such act, etc...? If they stop and review their action you win (you still have your car), police wins by not having to deal with paperwork, etc..., even the bailiffs win by not having threat of criminal prosecution and loss of license. That all I was trying to say.

[labman]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

I think we are talking about different things here, Labman I think was expressing concern(forgive me for speaking for you L) for a tendency on here for some to proffer "over the top" advise and the recommending of criminal proceedings in patently civil maters.
D

Correct

This is consumer forum with respect not a scene from CSI.

D

PMSL!!!

[labman]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

police wins by not having to deal with paperwork, etc..., even the bailiffs win by not having threat of criminal prosecution and loss of license.

Do you think the police would intervene on behalf of the debtor? Might they say it's a civil matter?

From whom would the bailiffs have the threat of criminal prosecution because the police wouldn't do it sure as eggs are eggs! :beagle:

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

So if bailiff is attempting to remove your car from the shared drive instead of your neighbour's, who owes money, say, would you let them get on with it and then go through the palaver of recovery, etc... or would you point it out to them that the car belongs to you, and if they carry on with their action it will be theft, against such and such act, etc...? If they stop and review their action you win (you still have your car), police wins by not having to deal with paperwork, etc..., even the bailiffs win by not having threat of criminal prosecution and loss of license. That all I was trying to say.

I would call the police.
I suppose you could try tapping them on the shoulder and saying, "Excuse me my good fellow but are you aware that you a re breaching section xxx of the theft act and would you mind desisting". I am sure that would do the trick.

D

[labman]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

I would call the police.
I suppose you could try tapping them on the shoulder and saying, "Excuse me my good fellow but are you aware that you a re breaching section xxx of the theft act and would you mind desisting". I am sure that would do the trick.

D

Thus the best advice for someone posting who may face this situation is to say If they try to take your car, call the police as they're committing theft.

The nitty gritty of which section of which act is irrelevant to my mind for the poster. It's always good to know there are people here with that level of knowledge, and it quickly becomes clear when new posters come on,which are keen to gain that level of knowledge. Equally, it's usually not too hard to spot those that just want the problem sorted and that's it. They don't give two hoots about the legislation surrounding their issue, they just want it resolved asap.

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

This is consumer forum with respect not a scene from CSI.

D

Unfortunately, English Law is more akin to a Venn Diagram. One area often overlaps with other areas.

[labman]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Unfortunately, English Law is more akin to a Venn Diagram. One area often overlaps with other areas.

Venn Diagrams need interpreting though, and the role of this site in interpreting it is very different to the role of say the police in doing the same. The advice given to the person affected by the Venn Diagram should thus reflect the role of the interpretor.

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Venn Diagrams need interpreting though, and the role of this site in interpreting it is very different to the role of say the police in doing the same. The advice given to the person affected by the Venn Diagram should thus reflect the role of the interpretor.

I spoke to a former colleague this evening who, like myself, is now retired from the police force. Even they are despairing of those who are now serving officers. Something has gone seriously wrong and a lot of it lies with right-wing nutters who think the police should be used as revenue-enforcement and not law enforcement officers. Get rid of these nutters and you might just see a change in attitude.

[labman]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

I spoke to a former colleague this evening who, like myself, is now retired from the police force. Even they are despairing of those who are now serving officers. Something has gone seriously wrong and a lot of it lies with right-wing nutters who think the police should be used as revenue-enforcement and not law enforcement officers. Get rid of these nutters and you might just see a change in attitude.

That would be good. It would also mean that the Venn Diagram metphor would become more realistic as civil and criminal would possibly genuinely cross each other more frequently then.

[Magrew]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Gee, you take a few days away from the site and then something interesting happens and it takes you ages to read it all and catch up with it.

Going back to Labman's first point, I always think of Sydney when problems first kick-off, "it is good to talk". I would recommend advocacy before getting legal every time.

Now considering where we have got to here, I agree that the there are "baby" police officers out there that approach the law with very immature heads but I think it is a mark of the system as it now exists. When I were a lad growing up the police were there to prevent crime but now it appears they are there to prove they are catching criminals. That is why there is so much nonsense prosecution going on. It is costing us a fortune.

It is all targets and KPI's whereas in the past a really good policeman could manage things to offer corrective advice in a more relevant, effective and swift manner than any court will these days. I am seen as an upstanding member of society but if I went through my adolescence again I think I would be going through that revolving prison door that so many high spirited kids get trapped in these days.

Thing is this is distracting from the detection of "real" crime, hence the difficulty to get fraud and the likes investigated.

Now back to the original point again. A good legal advisor will always promote ADR's before getting legal. Court should be a last resort but these days it is so much more likely that you will end up in court at sometime because there appears to be an awful lot more pigheaded people that just cannot see what a fair resolution would be. This can be seen in most industries but the public sector bean counters and the bankers are amongst the worst.

Don't get legal, get smart. But when you meet pigheaded smart often gets you nowhere.

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Unfortunately, English Law is more akin to a Venn Diagram. One area often overlaps with other areas.

To me it is more clear cut, if an offence is criminal, only the police can investigate and enforce, it has to be left to them, "realistically" we, the public cannot intervene, all we can do is report it.

Whilst it may be interesting studying the mechanisms by which the enforcement service decide who they should, and should not take criminal proceeding against, our deliberations or protestations are going to make absolutely no difference in the matter. We report the indecent and the police take over.

Civil matters are different of course we can litigate in our own name and use the relevant legislature in order to assist.

D

[alham]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

With respect I disagree. As said before, in criminal cases the proof is " beyond reasonable doubt", where in civil cases" on the balance of probabilities". Taking on board everything said (negotiations, police involvement, etc...) if necessary one can take a criminal case through the civil procedures if police refuses to prosecute (or CPS more likely). Again, as someone who's been (and currently still in the process) of civil litigation I am the last person to recommend legal route BUT sometime one needs to kick back at persevered injustice when authorities say "nothing we can do".