Advice - Legal or Realistic?

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

This is where I get concerned see. You know that because you were a police officer, but I certainly didn't know about the Ghosh test, nor would I know where to find out about it. If I thought a fraud had been committed I would go straight to the police and let them tell me there was no point in pursuing things.

Presactly

D

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

This is where I get concerned see. You know that because you were a police officer, but I certainly didn't know about the Ghosh test, nor would I know where to find out about it. If I thought a fraud had been committed I would go straight to the police and let them tell me there was no point in pursuing things.

If you like, I will put together a Layman's Guide to the Fraud Act 2006 together with a Layman's Guide to the Ghosh Test, if that would help. It can then be posted on a thread or as a stickie.

[alham]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

With a guide on how to communicate with your ex-colleagues

[labman]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

If you like, I will put together a Layman's Guide to the Fraud Act 2006 together with a Layman's Guide to the Ghosh Test, if that would help. It can then be posted on a thread or as a stickie.

That is a kind offer and would be interesting purely from a knowledge point of view.However, I think it is best to leave the police do their jobs and us stay keen amateurs. The consequences if we got it wrong after reading your guide could be severe.

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

That is a kind offer and would be interesting purely from a knowledge point of view.However, I think it is best to leave the police do their jobs and us stay keen amateurs. The consequences if we got it wrong after reading your guide could be severe.

Such a guide would be purely to explain how it works and what the Ghosh Test is. Alham's suggestion of a Layman's Guide to How to Deal with PC Plod might be a good idea, also.

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Hi BB

I personally would be interested to see how the police access the culpability of criminals. As an academic exercise.
I don't think you are suggesting that if your case passes this test you go to the police and say, look this case has passed the Ghosh test you must enforce this legislation, are you?

D

[teaboy2]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Because the accusation would not have come from anyone with the power to enforce, the legislation is designed to be used by the police not forums like this, IMHO.

D

So was the protection from harassment act 1997 (harassment is also a criminal act but also a civil law violation)!

How many times has the the protection from harrasement act been qouted and resulted in a a company being found to have harassed a person? The fraud act 2006 can be used both in civil cases and criminal because the simple fact is - Fraud is not only a crime, it is a civil law violation too. Where the person that committed the act can be ordered to pay Monetary penalties usually in the form of damages and compensation in civil court.

The point of using the fraud act 2006 when informing companies their actions may amount to breach of the fraud act 2006, is, atleast when i qoute it, meant as a powerful tool to deter them and give them something to think about, while at the same time knowing not only can we issue a claim for harassment in civil court but can also issue a claim for fraud to reclaim the monetary value of financial loss incurred and/or damages (or just damages for their attempt to defraud). A judge in a civil court will be very interested to know whether any fraud or attempt at defrauding someone has occured and whether to order the monetary value of the alleged fraud be repaid to the claiment as well as damages. On top of the the judge has the power to refer any fraud for criminal investigation where the defendant may end up facing criminal prosecution as well - But thats totally up to the judge really and seldom will happen apart from in serious fraud cases.

[alham]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Laws are their for everyone, it's just authorities might know many more rules and regulations with which to batter citizens, however Law is blind(???) and it's not unique prerogative of authorities and law-enforcements to press for criminal investigation. In fact, one hears that a lot of modern law-enforcers know very little, and what they know is often incorrect, so sometimes it is up to us to chivvy them on with investigation of wrongdoing. As 'been said on this forum many times "knowledge is power".

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Hi BB

I personally would be interested to see how the police access the culpability of criminals. As an academic exercise.
I don't think you are suggesting that if your case passes this test you go to the police and say, look this case has passed the Ghosh test you must enforce this legislation, are you?

D

I think you've summed it up perfectly in the first sentence of your post, Davy. It takes two years to fully-train a police officer and after that they then undertake refresher training every two years, plus any specialist training.

A lot of frustration amongst the public arises as the result of them not understanding why the police do things the way they do and the police not explaining to the public why they do things the way they do. If I can demystify this and explain it in easy-to-understand terms, then, hopefully, people can understand that there are times when it is best to go to the police and times when a different approach, perhaps, using civil procedures, may be more desirable or fruitful.

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

So was the protection from harassment act 1997 (harassment is also a criminal act but also a civil law violation)!

How many times has the the protection from harrasement act been qouted and resulted in a a company being found to have harassed a person? The fraud act 2006 can be used both in civil cases and criminal because the simple fact is - Fraud is not only a crime, it is a civil law violation too. Where the person that committed the act can be ordered to pay Monetary penalties usually in the form of damages and compensation in civil court.

The point of using the fraud act 2006 when informing companies their actions may amount to breach of the fraud act 2006, is, atleast when i qoute it, meant as a powerful tool to deter them and give them something to think about, while at the same time knowing not only can we issue a claim for harassment in civil court but can also issue a claim for fraud to reclaim the monetary value of financial loss incurred and/or damages (or just damages for their attempt to defraud). A judge in a civil court will be very interested to know whether any fraud or attempt at defrauding someone has occured and whether to order the monetary value of the alleged fraud be repaid to the claiment as well as damages. On top of the the judge has the power to refer any fraud for criminal investigation where the defendant may end up facing criminal prosecution as well - But thats totally up to the judge really and seldom will happen apart from in serious fraud cases.

Certainly the acts you mentioned have a civil remedy available to them, and are appropriate in some cases, the harassment act in particular has a civil remedy built into the legislation..
There is a major difference between this and recommending that the OP takes action under the theft act or applies some test for criminal liability.

A DCA who sends an invoice that incorrectly states a balance is not an offence under the fraud act, as I have sen stated on here, criminal offences should be reported to the police, civil offences like the ones you mentioned should be acted on either in person or reported to the appropriate regulatory authority.

D

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Laws are their for everyone, it's just authorities might know many more rules and regulations with which to batter citizens, however Law is blind(???) and it's not unique prerogative of authorities and law-enforcements to press for criminal investigation. In fact, one hears that a lot of modern law-enforcers know very little, and what they know is often incorrect, so sometimes it is up to us to chivvy them on with investigation of wrongdoing. As 'been said on this forum many times "knowledge is power".

That is very true, Alham. It is somewhat disturbing that police officers are often so clueless. It is is also very disturbing that older and more experienced officers are being forcibly retired when commonsense tells you to keep them on the force in order to keep young and new officers in line. A lot of avoidable conflict arises as the direct result of young officers adopting a confrontational approach to situations, which results in situations escalating into violence. However, having said that, not all young officers are like this and you will get those who can be described as "Old Heads On Young Shoulders".

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

I think you've summed it up perfectly in the first sentence of your post, Davy. It takes two years to fully-train a police officer and after that they then undertake refresher training every two years, plus any specialist training.

A lot of frustration amongst the public arises as the result of them not understanding why the police do things the way they do and the police not explaining to the public why they do things the way they do. If I can demystify this and explain it in easy-to-understand terms, then, hopefully, people can understand that there are times when it is best to go to the police and times when a different approach, perhaps, using civil procedures, may be more desirable or fruitful.

Yes as an academic exercise, but we cannot take over the function of the police, understanding the process is fine, advising people on here to adopt it in order to obtain redress is a nonsense.
At the end of the day you would have to just report the occurrence to the police and they will decide, makes absolutely no difference what conclusion we make on our Ghosh test.

D

[alham]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

That is very true, Alham. It is somewhat disturbing that police officers are often so clueless. It is is also very disturbing that older and more experienced officers are being forcibly retired when commonsense tells you to keep them on the force in order to keep young and new officers in line. A lot of avoidable conflict arises as the direct result of young officers adopting a confrontational approach to situations, which results in situations escalating into violence. However, having said that, not all young officers are like this and you will get those who can be described as "Old Heads On Young Shoulders".

Absolutely, that's why your layman's guide will be so helpful, and if you can make it sticky - education is a two-way process, we can understand Mr plod, and if we can help them, all the better. Win-win methinks.

[Guest]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Absolutely, that's why your layman's guide will be so helpful, and if you can make it sticky - education is a two-way process, we can understand Mr plod, and if we can help them, all the better. Win-win methinks.

I think we are talking about different things here, Labman I think was expressing concern(forgive me for speaking for you L) for a tendency on here for some to proffer "over the top" advise and the recommending of criminal proceedings in patently civil maters.
What you are talking about here is an information only resource that would give the reader an insight into the workings of the police, I think we would all be interested to see that.
D

[bluebottle]

Re: Advice - Legal or Realistic?

Absolutely, that's why your layman's guide will be so helpful, and if you can make it sticky - education is a two-way process, we can understand Mr plod, and if we can help them, all the better. Win-win methinks.

That is EXACTLY what I am getting at, Alham. The police rely heavily on the help of the public in solving crime and bringing offenders to justice. Also, what I might do is incorporate a CSI guide. All too often, well-meaning individuals inadvertently contaminate a crime scene and make the job of Forensic Scene Examiners (FSEs) more difficult as well as hampering the job of investigating officers. As you say, if it means people can help the police, all the better. It also means that minor offences can be dealt with through civil procedures, if necessary, leaving the police to deal with more serious matters.