Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

[Inca]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I was under the impression that once an incurable degenerative condition is diagnosed, the sufferer is exempt. As Bluebottle suggests, hit them with a SAR.

One suspects that this is Atos breaking the rules in order to try and get more commission.

And you,my friend,are (as usual) totally correct.....shame the Atossers don;t seem to know this. Re DLA,,get the gent to get the forms and send them off quickly (it's changing it's name to Personal Independance Payment)
I am truly horrified by the treatment he has recieved,,,it's hard enough accepting one has a life limiting disease without a plonker who doesn't know his arse form his elbow deciding his future!

[wales01man]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

The a
system is never going to be perfect and using ATOS a company out for a profit will never help.
I cannot see why all medical based benefit decisions by The DWP are not made based on historical evidence from doctors and surgeons ,after all the NHS once they find there is nothing wrong with someone doesn't vary on treating anyone for something non existent.
If a person has been treated for a serious diagnosed condition for a period of time they must have that condition.
Hospitals don't take anyones word that they have something wrong they carry out tests
scans etc all over a period of time not a 20 minute question and answer session in an office.
Change it to an evidence backed assessment not a money making business

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

it's hard enough accepting one has a life limiting disease without a plonker who doesn't know his arse form his elbow deciding his future!

Perhaps they need a diagram?

[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Oh boy I know the system was never perfect before but at least it was a bit fairer. Sure there were one or two doctors out there who would issue unnecessary sick notes but they have been more accountable for a long time now and don't do that anymore.

At least before ATOS the decision makers in the DWP used to apply a criteria per type of illness and had a rough idea of how it affected you in your day to day life. What has happened to that set of criteria - has it just gone out the window.

I must have been up until 3am this morning researching on the net and everything seems to hinge on when they decided to stop his money. Apparently he was last paid on October 21st and tried to let him know by telephone. Now that I find really strange because they are supposed to write to you. The DWP do not record any phonecalls made out of DWP but apparently record all calls made into DWP, so this sounds oh so fishy. They originally told him he needed a sick note from November 5th, then when that was faxed they told him the date was wrong and he now has to get another from October 21st. I am hoping that this is now going to put him the other side of the October 28th threshold because then he can still appeal using GL24.

He has to avoid ESA like the plague and ask to be put on Income support.

Ugh... I hope he gets some decent advice from Citizen's Advice today. Their services have been severely cut back here and generally anything to do with benefits they refer to a charity organisation because they don't have the funding to take it on.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Change it to an evidence backed assessment not a money making business

That would not suit the psycho-social model of disability denial that was promoted by "Lord" David Fraud.

[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Agreed but then again people like David Fraud and Cameron have had a privileged upbringing and life. They have never had to realise just how degrading it can be to go from being someone holding down two jobs to support his wife and kids to someone who has to have his shoes fastened and his underpants pulled up for him. He has never had to always park on the end of the parking bay section so that no other car can park alongside the driver's side just so that you can open the door wide enough to swing your body out of the car and then pull yourself up and out. He has never been unable to get more than 2 hours sleep per in 4 because the rest of the time he is crying out in pain. He has never not been able to get up and down from a chair without assistance or been unable to sit for more than 30 minutes without shooting pains in the backs of his legs and back.

That is what disability is like and for a man to have to go from a fully functioning man who supports his family to one who is in many ways like a baby in his needs is degrading.

So I guess because they don't see the pain and emotional hardship that people go through then "of course we don't have people like that in our country - they have to all be liars"

All I can say is thank god this disease was only passed down to one of the three sons because it is also hereditary.

[enquirer]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

It would appear that his original medical documentation that was given to ATOS back in 2010 was "lost" which does not surprise me.

They lost confidential medical data? Automatic breach of DPA 1998. See if you can get this admission in writing - after you have hit them with a SAR and confirmed that information is missing.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Or he might, if she had vagina dentata. msl:


I expect that the argument would go that the Department was merely trying to correct an unfortunate mistake that appeared to have been made and that the Decision Maker could only base his/her decision on the information directly before him. If the "customer" chose not to make a report from a specialist available to the Decision Maker or even to try to work out how to get such a report through the Department labyrinth, it could not possibly be the fault of the Decision Maker, the Department or ATOS. DWP has used that excuse too many times and people, including claimants, disability charities and an increasing number of MPs, are beginning to see past the smoke and mirrors and see the excuse for what it really is - bullsh*t.

In my opinion, the system has been designed to minimise transparency and to grant deniability to all those responsible. True. But, sooner or later, the shroud of secrecy starts to break down and then the sordid truth spills out. It's people power that will force the government, the civil servants and the assorted political cronies, misfits, hangers-on and nutters out into the open. I know it's been a long time coming, but you only get away with things like that for so long before the truth outs. Remember my previous siggie - Fear not the truth, nor fear speaking the truth, for the truth will out - The truth will always come out in the end.

But why might a Swivel Swervant have reason to disbelieve the evidence submitted by the "expert(s)" at ATOS? The dodgy software ATOS use.

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[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Yes they lost his medical proofs (Consultants letters, findings from MRI scans etc). The kids had to then get another set of documents from the hospital which is what was presented to the tribunal. Now when my SIL filled in his ESA50 he would not send in his medical notes because he told them they would only "lose them again" and that they would be provided in photocopy form at the medical. I am going over to visit tonight and if I have to put a bomb under his a**e I will (no he has not got a nice one like your pic Cleverclogs - that is a stunner) because it looks like they are breaching civil rights at all turns here.

And the best of it is we are paying through the neck for the to do it too....

This is from the House of Lords Q&A of August 29th, Hansard

Employment: Work Capability Assessments

Question Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the total sums of public funds paid to date to Atos Healthcare; and what will be paid to it in each of the coming years in which it is contracted to the Department for Work and Pensions.

[HL1931]
TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department for Work and Pensions (LordFreud):

The current Medical Services Contract with Atos Healthcare commenced on September 1st 2005 Spending on the Contract since then has been as follows:
Sept 2005 to March 2006 £73,300,000
April 2006 to March 2007 £60,200,000
April 2007 to March 2008 £70,200,000
April 2008 to March 2009 £111,800,000
April 2009 to March 2010 £99,100,000
April 2010 to March 2011 £112,800,000
April 2011 to March 2012 £112,400,000
April 2012 to March 2013 £114,300,000
The figures in the table not only cover the total number of assessments undertaken across all benefits, including IS Reassessment, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investments new technology and other service improvements. In respect of what will be paid to Atos Healthcare in each of the coming years for the Medical Services Contract this information is not currently available as the contract is consumption based. This means that future payments will be predicted on the volume of assessments, change and infrastructural upgrades undertaken by Atos. The increase in the figures is due to a rise in the volumes going through the Medical Services Contract between the Department and Atos Healthcare. There was a small increase in the cost of the exam over the period, however the main reason for the increase in spend was the introduction of Employment Support Allowance (ESA) by the last government from November 2008 followed by Incapacity Benefit Reassessment (IBA) starting in March 2011.

So from this it is evident that the number of examinations has probably doubled in the last 6 years because I am pretty sure they don't pay any more for someone to enter keystrokes on a computer today than they did back then.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Thank you one and all for your replies. Since posting this I have had a further conversation with my son-in-law. It would appear that his original medical documentation that was given to ATOS back in 2010 was "lost" which does not surprise me. He was told to get a sick note from his GP and also gave him the date it had to be issued from, so he rang them yesterday. Earliest appointment - end of next week so he lied and told them that his tonsils were flaring and was given an appointment this morning. The sick note was faxed off by Jobcentre and then they told him, the dates are wrong go back and get another one. I think this is a ploy to just mess him about even further. He has also been told that there is no recourse to appeal the decision of the medical and that he now has to migrate onto ESA so I guess they are trying very hard to take his right to appeal away and by making him now apply for ESA (by mail, thus taking even more time) they are hoping to migrate him onto CESA and the whole charade will start again in a year's tim They're very good at "losing" things, but suddenly find them again when a court order is slapped on them or the ICO gets involved.

He was told by the DWP representative yesterday that there would be no appeals process for this medical and that he had to apply for ESA - I don't think that this is the correct information but.... Sounds like they been having lessons from certificated bailiffs. They tell porkies.

ATOS very seldom if ever use doctors and if they do the odds of getting someone who has qualified knowledge of your particular condition must be really rare. I believe that 9/10 examiners are "lay-persons" who know diddly about medical problems. The last person he saw was a barely qualified nurse. Any evidence or opinion given by them wouldn't stand up in a court of law if this is true. There are very strict rules governing the admissibility of expert opinion.

I have asked my SIL to put in the following requests purely because we need somewhere to start:

1. A request for full disclosure of all data held on computer by the DWP and ATOS
2. A request for the transcript and report from his previous tribunal
3. Get a full medical report done by his consultants
4. Instructions to ATOS from DWP to recall following a Tribunal ruling against DWP. Request this from both ATOS and DWP.
5. Proof of legislation authorising DWP and ATOS to recall a claimant for assessment following a ruling by a statutory tribunal against the DWP.

Number 4 should get them panicking. Number 5, if there is no legislation allowing them to recall following a tribunal decision against DWP, should have them running home to change their underpants at the very least. Evidence like that placed before the PHSO could be very damning. If made public, it could be dynamite.

My husband and I know we will have to foot the bill for these because my SIL has a family to support and without any income, extras like this are impossible to fund.

Here in Stoke on Trent the DWP wheels motion really slowly - his last tribunal took 9 months from request to hearing.

Thank you this is very helpful. I think it could be DWP as a way of moving him from Incapacity Benefit in preparation for this new Universal Credit mess.

The last time my SIL was supposedly "Fit for Work" he tried to have sanctions brought against the examiner and was told that this particular examiner was a "b***tard" and was talked out of it by Citizens Advice as it would be "detrimental to your claim". I think he was given a veiled threat. Always report ATOS assessors to their respective regulating body. To cite an actual example of how tough regulating bodies can get, a GP who carried out medicals for DHSS was called before the GMC after numerous complaints by social security claimants. The GMC found that he had a history of finding in favour of the DHSS in every case complained about, despite overwhelming evidence that he should have found for the claimant. The GMC found him guilty of professional misconduct. In striking him off for six months, the GMC stipulated that, following his reinstatement after the striking-off period, he was not to work unsupervised for a period of two years and was banned for life from conducting any form of medical examination for medico-legal purposes, which is what the ATOS assessments are. So you see, the regulating bodies can be pretty tough when they need to be. When a complaint is made to a regulating body, they have to make a decision as to whether the healthcare profession is fit to practice. Saying someone with a progressive condition, like AS, is fit to work when the evidence clearly shows otherwise, brings into question not only their fitness to practice, but their professional competence also. The role of the regulating bodies is to protect the public against those healthcare professionals whose continued presence in the healthcare sector represents a risk to the health, safety and wellbeing of the public. I am surprised CAB even attempted to talk your SIL out of making a complaint. I would be inclined to make a complaint to CAB HQ. That is tantamount to condoning the ATOS assessor's behaviour.

Thank you again - the last tribunal took 9 months to sit before a panel. I have no doubt that they will drag their feet again. This might just be the leverage needed to focus their minds. Nine months not dealing with a citizen's affairs in a timely fashion. They hope that by dragging it out claimants will give up. How wrong they are.

I was too but I have since found a document on ATOS that shows what categories of illness get an automatic recall and unfortunately Ankylosing Spondylitis is one of them. Are these automatic recalls, following a Tribunal ruling against DWP, backed by any legislation? If not, they are potentially unlawful and, quite possibly, in breach of the Human Rights Act (Right Not to Be Subjected to Degrading or De-Humanising Treatment).

If we get my SIL's MP involved and speak and take complaint to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman what would this achieve? Would a decision from the ombudsman force the DWP to leave him be and get ATOS off the case. Rulings of Maladministration against government departments are made public. Unless DWP try to bury it, which is difficult because the PHSO publishes adjudications on its website, there is nothing to stop anyone circulating it to the media or internet forums or a social media portal, such as YouTube.

Has either the DWP or ATOS actually been successfully sued for breach of human rights and gross medical misconduct? If not it is high time they were.

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[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I don't know - how would we find out?

[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Thank you so much for all your information and answers - they are most enlightening. I am going to be writing it all down as we will be visiting them tonight to hopefully give them some info and support.

I was incorrect when I said that Atos were the ones who lost Jamie's medical records , It was actually DWP and they apparently also claim to have never received a copy of the tribunal ruling from the SSCS Tribunal. Though how this can be factual I have no idea because they had to pay back 9 months worth of benefits and re-instate his benefits as a result.

My SIL was seen by a consultant specialising in Rheumatoid Arthritis and Anklyosing Spondylosis at the Staffordshire Rheumatology Centre last week who felt that his AS had significantly deteriorated. He has ordered a full body MRI (no idea how long that will take to be done) to see just how bad things have gotten and to see as well, the extent of the Carpal Tunnel syndrome. I have asked my DIL to contact his consultant and ask for a full report on Jamie's condition (I don't know whether this is possible or if they will have to go the data request route - but I know the consultant personally and know that he is an amenable person) I have also asked her to get a written report as to why his operation to remove his tonsils could not be done with letters from the two anaethetists who were in attendance and his specialist.

At the moment they are Citizens Advice in a meeting there so we should hopefully have a little more information tonight.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Thank you so much for all your information and answers - they are most enlightening. I am going to be writing it all down as we will be visiting them tonight to hopefully give them some info and support.

I was incorrect when I said that Atos were the ones who lost Jamie's medical records , It was actually DWP and they apparently also claim to have never received a copy of the tribunal ruling from the SSCS Tribunal. Though how this can be factual I have no idea because they had to pay back 9 months worth of benefits and re-instate his benefits as a result. To lie convincingly, you have to have a good memory. DWP aren't very good at telling porkies. They nearly always get caught out. It is, quite literally, a case of left hand not knowing what right hand is doing. There is piece of legislation called the Interpretation Act 1970 - correct me, LB members, if this is incorrect - which makes it clear that a document is deemed to have been received within two working days of being posted. I would be inclined to contact HMCTS, at Cardiff, where the administration centre for Child Support and Social Security Tribunals is based, and ask them to confirm the date, in writing if possible, as to when the Tribunal's decision was sent to DWP. The fact DWP paid benefit and backdated it tends to indicate that they did receive the decision and thought they could get away with it. That is maladministration. If DWP claim they lost your SIL's medical records, report this to the ICO.

My SIL was seen by a consultant specialising in Rheumatoid Arthritis and Anklyosing Spondylosis at the Staffordshire Rheumatology Centre last week who felt that his AS had significantly deteriorated. He has ordered a full body MRI (no idea how long that will take to be done) to see just how bad things have gotten and to see as well, the extent of the Carpal Tunnel syndrome. I have asked my DIL to contact his consultant and ask for a full report on Jamie's condition (I don't know whether this is possible or if they will have to go the data request route - but I know the consultant personally and know that he is an amenable person) I have also asked her to get a written report as to why his operation to remove his tonsils could not be done with letters from the two anaethetists who were in attendance and his specialist. I have FMS and have had two separate MRI scans, one on my neck and one on the base of my spine. Each took around 20 minutes to complete. A full body MRI will take approximately 2 hours in total to complete if done in one single session. Due to the way the AS and RA affects your SIL, they may do in separate sessions, allowing him to rest in between each scanning session. That would seem, to me, to be less of a strain on your SIL.

At the moment they are Citizens Advice in a meeting there so we should hopefully have a little more information tonight.

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[enquirer]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Echoing Bluebottle - always report their dodgy assessors to the appropriate professional body.

Think laterally.

Atos is the brain, but these people are the hands.

If you strike at the hands - make it clear that they will be pursued personally for what they have done - then they will be less and less inclined to do Atos' dirty work.

Atos will then have to pay more and more to an ever-shrinking pool of volunteers. As the pool shrinks, the quality declines even further, making litigation and bad publicity even more likely.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Echoing Bluebottle - always report their dodgy assessors to the appropriate professional body.

Think laterally.

Atos is the brain, but these people are the hands.

If you strike at the hands - make it clear that they will be pursued personally for what they have done - then they will be less and less inclined to do Atos' dirty work.

Atos will then have to pay more and more to an ever-shrinking pool of volunteers. As the pool shrinks, the quality declines even further, making litigation and bad publicity even more likely.

That is exactly how to throw a spanner in IDS's plans, Enquirer. However, what is more likely to completely bugger things up is if the regulating bodies - GMC, NMC and HCPC - make it automatic professional misconduct to undertake a medico-legal assessment for the DWP, whether directly or indirectly, i.e. through ATOS. If ATOS/DWP were to then attempt to use unqualified persons to carry out WCA assessments, any resulting reports would, in my honest opinion, be inadmissible for medico-legal purposes. Any report for medico-legal purposes must be compiled by a qualified person with a minimum number of years practice. Expert opinion is subject to slightly different rules.