Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

[VF700fen]

My son-in-law has degenerative Ankylosing Spondylosis which affects his neck, back, entire spine and his hips. It has spread throughout his lungs, and is now into his liver and kidneys as well. This is a confirmed diagnosis from Rheumatology specialists for which he has had documentary evidence.

He also has extremely severe tonsillitis which flares so badly 3/4 times a year that he has to be admitted to hospital to have the the quinzy's aspirated because the high doses of antibiotics interfere with the way his high dosage painkillers work. He was last admitted to hospital in May this year for an operation to remove the tonsils but that surgery could not go ahead because even with two anaesthetists they could not maintain his airway in order to operate. His throat was collapsing due to the severity of the spinal collapse from the Ankylosing Spondylosis.

He has also been diagnosed with Carpal tunnel syndrome.

His motion is severely limited to the extent that his wife has to help him dress and I seriously doubt his safeness to drive.

He has always worked (up until 2007/2008 when his back became so bad that he could no longer do "labouring" type work). At this stage he went onto Incapacity Benefit because he was unfit to work.

In 2010 he was called for an ATOS medical. With his forms he submitted copies of his medical records as evidence and despite this received a "0" score, subsequently being declared fit for work. He appealed this decision and when he went to tribunal and the doctor examined his hospital records, he was told that his Spondylosis was so bad that the tribunal would award him the highest points they could and that he would be left alone.

Not so. Earlier this year he was again called for an ATOS medical. Again he took his medical records documenting the seriousness of his Spondylosis etc and was told that the ATOS examiner was not interested in his records because they could be out of date and he may have improved in the meantime. Again he has been passed as fit for work and without notification of the fact all his benefits have ceased.

I know that ATOS have their targets that they have to reach (Nos of people they have to remove from the Benefits list) but there has to come a point when they need to be stopped. I can understand the need to get people who are "abusing the benefits system" back to work, but they are victimising someone who is genuinely ill.

For all these years he has refused to claim DLA because he is too proud to admit how bad he is, so if he could work, believe me he would.

I would appreciate any advice you can give as to what we need to request from DWP, ATOS, the hospitals, his doctors etc and if there are any solicitors who would take on a case on like this and if needs be take it to the courts of human rights.

Sorry for this being so long but there was a fair bit to explain. Thank you

[MissFM]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

How unutterably cruel these people are and how unfit for the job. There was another thread recently about Ankylosing Spondylosis that was a very similar tale.

I can only suggest that you continue to appeal vigorously, write to your MP and involve the press.

If his consultant were to write directly to the "decision makers" I don't see how they could go against him.

Wishing you so well - like many here, I continue to look for a magic bullet that would stop the abuse of public funds that is Atos.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Earlier this year he was again called for an ATOS medical. Again he took his medical records documenting the seriousness of his Spondylosis etc and was told that the ATOS examiner was not interested in his records because they could be out of date and he may have improved in the meantime.

Which is plainly impossible.

In just what branch of ju-ju was that ATOS chump supposedly qualified?

Again he has been passed as fit for work and without notification of the fact all his benefits have ceased.

Which is entirely typical.

I believe that he still has a right to obtain a copy of the so-called medical report from the Department of Worthless Poltroons, so I would suggest that he does get a copy so that he may detect the lies to which the examiner has put his/her name. You'll also find out if the examiner was a doctor, a nurse, a midwife, a fang-pranger or a bone jerker, so he may complain to the appropriate professional body.

Unfortunately, he will have to apply for "reconsideration" by the DWP before his case is allowed to go to a tribunal for appeal - and that can take months!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I continue to look for a magic bullet that would stop the abuse of public funds that is Atos.

Would any bullet fired at IDS need to be made from silver?

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I cannot believe what I have read in your post, VF700fen. How cruel can human beings be to another human being?

What to do?

1. Report the two ATOS examiners to their regulating bodies. What you have described could possibly amount to professional misconduct. A doctor has recently been banned from carrying out ATOS assessments by the GMC for this sort of behaviour;
2. Get your SIL's MP involved and speak to them about taking a complaint to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman (PHSO) for maladministration on the part of the DWP. They will be able to provide you with the requisite forms and help you take the complaint through (All complaints to PHSO must go through your MP.).

Regulating bodies are as follows -

General Medical Council - doctors
Health Care Professionals Council - physiotherapists, occupational therapists
Nursing & Midwifery Council - nurses, midwives, nurse practitioners

Ask ATOS for the names and registration numbers of the healthcare professionals who did your SIL's assessments.

Also, ask the DWP for their Decision Maker's written justification for declaring your SIL fit for work when the medical evidence is clearly to the contrary. If a statutory Appeals Tribunal has said your SIL is unfit to work, the DWP really should abide by that ruling. One suggestion I would make is to request all documentation the DWP holds on your SIL with regard to his illness from the time he first starting claiming. I would suggest this is done as a Subject Access Request under Section 7, Data Protection Act 1998. This will cost £10, but it may be what is needed to find out if it is DWP or ATOS doing the recalls. If you would like me to draw up a list of documents to request from the DWP under a SAR, please ask.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Would any bullet fired at IDS need to be made from silver?

No. Armour-Piercing. IDS has a hide like a rhino - and a brain to match.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Which is plainly impossible.

In just what branch of ju-ju was that ATOS chump supposedly qualified?


Which is entirely typical.

I believe that he still has a right to obtain a copy of the so-called medical report from the Department of Worthless Poltroons, so I would suggest that he does get a copy so that he may detect the lies to which the examiner has put his/her name. You'll also find out if the examiner was a doctor, a nurse, a midwife, a fang-pranger or a bone jerker, so he may complain to the appropriate professional body.

Unfortunately, he will have to apply for "reconsideration" by the DWP before his case is allowed to go to a tribunal for appeal - and that can take months!

Article 6, Human Rights Act 1998 requires that the state deals with a citizen's affairs in a timely manner. Dragging a reconsideration out for months is not dealing with a citizen's affairs in a timely manner. It is a clear breach of Article 6 and, therefore, actionable in law.

[enquirer]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I was under the impression that once an incurable degenerative condition is diagnosed, the sufferer is exempt. As Bluebottle suggests, hit them with a SAR.

One suspects that this is Atos breaking the rules in order to try and get more commission.

[bluebottle]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I was under the impression that once an incurable degenerative condition is diagnosed, the sufferer is exempt. As Bluebottle suggests, hit them with a SAR.

One suspects that this is Atos breaking the rules in order to try and get more commission.

This was happening when the DWP was known as the DHSS and I was a branch secretary with a medical charity. Quite often, once we told DHSS we were calling a professor of neurology to give evidence against the GPs they use, they would sh*t themselves and miraculously reverse their decision. The profs were leading authorities on the conditions the charity dealt with and there was no way a Medical Appeals Tribunal would argue with someone of that experience and knowledge.

However, sometimes, DHSS had to extract the urine and convene a Tribunal. The funniest Tribunal hearing I attended was where a civil servant claimed there was "no such condition". When the prof who was the expert witness for the appellant challenged the experience of the GP and another medico whose written evidence DHSS were relying on, the look on the civil servant's face clearly indicated he knew he and DHSS were stuffed. I happened to glance across at the members of the tribunal - a consultant physician, a consultant surgeon and a barrister - and noticed that the consultant surgeon was looking down at the table in front of him, shoulders noticeably shaking and quietly peeing himself laughing. Another one was even funnier. I challenged a statement made by a doctor whose evidence DHSS was relying on. It went something like this -

BB: Mr ******. What post-nominal letters does Dr ***** have after their name?
CS: Er, MB, ChB, MRCOG.
BB: You're absolutely sure about that?
CS: Yes.
BB: Could you tell the Tribunal what a doctor who is a Member of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists knows about hereditary neuropathy?
CS: He's a doctor.
BB: Yes. But's he's an obstetrician or a gynaecologist, not a neurologist. Would you ask a dentist to perform a gynaecological procedure on your wife?
CS: Of course not.
BB: Then why are you trying to pull the wool over the Tribunal's eyes by trying to kid them that the testimony of a doctor who is not trained in neurology should be accepted above the testimony of a professor of neurology?

At this point, the barrister chairing the Tribunal stopped the hearing and told the civil servant to stop wasting their's, the appellant's and my time. The civil servant was well p*ssed-off when the Tribunal found for the appellant. Once the civil servant was out of earshot, the appellant described him as an onanist, only in stronger terms.

If it does transpire that ATOS are recalling claimants in defiance of Tribunal hearings in order to boost their profits, that is of concern and should be brought to the attention of as many MPs as possible, as well as the public and the media. I would reckon IDS would have difficulty explaining to a HoC Select Committee hearing why he was allowing a private-sector disability denial factory to run amok and defy rulings by a statutory Tribunal. Another thing to note, it is an indictable offence to mislead a statutory tribunal. This applies to anyone providing evidence to a statutory Tribunal.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

BB: Would you ask a dentist to perform a gynaecological procedure on your wife?
CS: Of course not.

Or he might, if she had vagina dentata. msl:

If it does transpire that ATOS are recalling claimants in defiance of Tribunal hearings in order to boost their profits, that is of concern and should be brought to the attention of as many MPs as possible, as well as the public and the media. I would reckon IDS would have difficulty explaining to a HoC Select Committee hearing why he was allowing a private-sector disability denial factory to run amok and defy rulings by a statutory Tribunal.

I expect that the argument would go that the Department was merely trying to correct an unfortunate mistake that appeared to have been made and that the Decision Maker could only base his/her decision on the information directly before him. If the "customer" chose not to make a report from a specialist available to the Decision Maker or even to try to work out how to get such a report through the Department labyrinth, it could not possibly be the fault of the Decision Maker, the Department or ATOS.

In my opinion, the system has been designed to minimise transparency and to grant deniability to all those responsible.

Another thing to note, it is an indictable offence to mislead a statutory tribunal. This applies to anyone providing evidence to a statutory Tribunal.

But why might a Swivel Swervant have reason to disbelieve the evidence submitted by the "expert(s)" at ATOS?

[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Thank you one and all for your replies. Since posting this I have had a further conversation with my son-in-law. It would appear that his original medical documentation that was given to ATOS back in 2010 was "lost" which does not surprise me. He was told to get a sick note from his GP and also gave him the date it had to be issued from, so he rang them yesterday. Earliest appointment - end of next week so he lied and told them that his tonsils were flaring and was given an appointment this morning. The sick note was faxed off by Jobcentre and then they told him, the dates are wrong go back and get another one. I think this is a ploy to just mess him about even further. He has also been told that there is no recourse to appeal the decision of the medical and that he now has to migrate onto ESA so I guess they are trying very hard to take his right to appeal away and by making him now apply for ESA (by mail, thus taking even more time) they are hoping to migrate him onto CESA and the whole charade will start again in a year's time.

I can only suggest that you continue to appeal vigorously, write to your MP and involve the press. If his consultant were to write directly to the "decision makers" I don't see how they could go against him. Wishing you so well - like many here, I continue to look for a magic bullet that would stop the abuse of public funds that is Atos.

He was told by the DWP representative yesterday that there would be no appeals process for this medical and that he had to apply for ESA - I don't think that this is the correct information but....

Which is plainly impossible.I believe that he still has a right to obtain a copy of the so-called medical report from the Department of Worthless Poltroons, so I would suggest that he does get a copy so that he may detect the lies to which the examiner has put his/her name. You'll also find out if the examiner was a doctor, a nurse, a midwife, a fang-pranger or a bone jerker, so he may complain to the appropriate professional body.

Unfortunately, he will have to apply for "reconsideration" by the DWP before his case is allowed to go to a tribunal for appeal - and that can take months!

ATOS very seldom if ever use doctors and if they do the odds of getting someone who has qualified knowledge of your particular condition must be really rare. I believe that 9/10 examiners are "lay-persons" who know diddly about medical problems. The last person he saw was a barely qualified nurse.

I have asked my SIL to put in the following requests purely because we need somewhere to start:

1. A request for full disclosure of all data held on computer by the DWP and ATOS
2. A request for the transcript and report from his previous tribunal
3. Get a full medical report done by his consultants

My husband and I know we will have to foot the bill for these because my SIL has a family to support and without any income, extras like this are impossible to fund.

Here in Stoke on Trent the DWP wheels motion really slowly - his last tribunal took 9 months from request to hearing.

I cannot believe what I have read in your post, VF700fen. How cruel can human beings be to another human being?

What to do?

1. Report the two ATOS examiners to their regulating bodies. What you have described could possibly amount to professional misconduct. A doctor has recently been banned from carrying out ATOS assessments by the GMC for this sort of behaviour;
2. Get your SIL's MP involved and speak to them about taking a complaint to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman (PHSO) for maladministration on the part of the DWP. They will be able to provide you with the requisite forms and help you take the complaint through (All complaints to PHSO must go through your MP.).

Regulating bodies are as follows -

General Medical Council - doctors
Health Care Professionals Council - physiotherapists, occupational therapists
Nursing & Midwifery Council - nurses, midwives, nurse practitioners

Ask ATOS for the names and registration numbers of the healthcare professionals who did your SIL's assessments.

Also, ask the DWP for their Decision Maker's written justification for declaring your SIL fit for work when the medical evidence is clearly to the contrary. If a statutory Appeals Tribunal has said your SIL is unfit to work, the DWP really should abide by that ruling. One suggestion I would make is to request all documentation the DWP holds on your SIL with regard to his illness from the time he first starting claiming. I would suggest this is done as a Subject Access Request under Section 7, Data Protection Act 1998. This will cost £10, but it may be what is needed to find out if it is DWP or ATOS doing the recalls. If you would like me to draw up a list of documents to request from the DWP under a SAR, please ask.

Thank you this is very helpful. I think it could be DWP as a way of moving him from Incapacity Benefit in preparation for this new Universal Credit mess.

The last time my SIL was supposedly "Fit for Work" he tried to have sanctions brought against the examiner and was told that this particular examiner was a "b***tard" and was talked out of it by Citizens Advice as it would be "detrimental to your claim". I think he was given a veiled threat

Article 6, Human Rights Act 1998 requires that the state deals with a citizen's affairs in a timely manner. Dragging a reconsideration out for months is not dealing with a citizen's affairs in a timely manner. It is a clear breach of Article 6 and, therefore, actionable in law.

Thank you again - the last tribunal took 9 months to sit before a panel. I have no doubt that they will drag their feet again. This might just be the leverage needed to focus their minds.

I was under the impression that once an incurable degenerative condition is diagnosed, the sufferer is exempt. As Bluebottle suggests, hit them with a SAR.
One suspects that this is Atos breaking the rules in order to try and get more commission.

I was too but I have since found a document on ATOS that shows what categories of illness get an automatic recall and unfortunately Ankylosing Spondylitis is one of them.

If we get my SIL's MP involved and speak and take complaint to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman what would this achieve? Would a decision from the ombudsman force the DWP to leave him be and get ATOS off the case?

Has either the DWP or ATOS actually been successfully sued for breach of human rights and gross medical misconduct? If not it is high time they were.

[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Or he might, if she had vagina dentata. msl:

I think you will find that this is the definition of a virgin

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

I have since found a document on ATOS that shows what categories of illness get an automatic recall and unfortunately Ankylosing Spondylitis is one of them.

That is utterly ridiculous!

Has either the DWP or ATOS actually been successfully sued for breach of human rights and gross medical misconduct? If not it is high time they were.

I rather doubt that either could be, as the system has been designed to limit such action.

The DWP has clearly learned from Eichmann's mistakes.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

[VF700fen]

Re: Can we sue ATOS & DWP to stop their victimisation of my son-in-law?

Yep it certainly seems like Eugenics in another time.

I just found this

Freedom of Information request regarding entitlement to any benefits if a claimant challenges an ATOS ruliing

claimants who wish to dispute a decision will need to request that the decision maker looks at it again, a process known as mandatory reconsideration. Claimants will only be able to appeal a decision after a decision maker has considered whether the decision can be changed.

Following the introduction of mandatory reconsideration, payment of ESA will cease once a decision is made that the claimant does not have limited capability for work. If the claimant wishes to dispute this decision they must

request that the decision maker looks at it again (mandatory reconsideration). Whilst the decision maker is reconsidering the decision, ESA cannot be paid as there is no legal basis to do so . If, however, following completion of

mandatory reconsideration the claimant appeals to the first-tier Tribunal, ESA may be paid at the assessment phase rate provided the claimant sends medical evidence to the Department.

This came into effect last month and basically means that if my SIL now challenges the ATOS medical it will have to go to DWP for reconsideration but.... during that time he is ineligible for ESA and would have to claim JSA. However as he is not fit for work he cannot do that either..... What a nightmare.

So basically he is left with no alternative. He either has to go onto ESA at the lower level and accept a massive drop in income or end up with no income at all while someone at the DWP thinks about getting off his ***se and reversing the decision

This sucks....