Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

[stark13]

Hello there, I have received an offer from Lloyds regarding a claim for PPI, but from the figure i do believe it is wrong. If anyone here could help and tell me if they are in fact right or alternatively give me a new calculation that is right, that would be great! First of all, in advance I appreciate all your responses (if there are any) and thanks for all your help.

First of all loan, there were various loans that were refinanced, i'm just going to post the details for one to make it easier.

Cash Advance- £1700.00
Repayment of existing debt- £2300.00
PPI- £869.44
Total Loan £4869.44

The loan agreement states that the monthly payment is £117.69 of which £21.01 is PPI. The interest rate on the agreement is 16.9%APR and 1.31% per month fixed. 59 installments of £117.69 and one final installment of the remaining amount.
The loan started on 19/10/1998 and 11 payments were made until the loan was again refinanced and an amount £4187.54 was paid into the loan account to clear/consolidate/close the account (this 4187.54 wasn't paid by me, it was lloyds doing the refinancing). Also, the new refinanced loan had in the column repayment of existing debit £4000, therefore I'm guessing the £187.54 extra was a ppi rebate?

Now here's what I find confusing. Above and on the loan agreement is written "repayment of existing debt £2300". Now this £2300 is from the last loan which started on 29/06/1998 and had an opening balance of £2808.32 (total ppi £508.32), the monthly payments were £70.40 (of which £12.74 was ppi) and only 3 payments were made until £2746.87 was credited to close the account and refinance into the loan i have in question. This loan had the same term, 60 months, but had an interest rate of 18.8%APR and 1.45% fixed monthly.

Although on the loan agreement it gives a breakdown of how much PPI will be paid monthly, the full amount is still front-loaded on the actual loan statement. And when the settlement figure is applied, no rebate of ppi is given or mentioned. Therefore technically, on the new loan, ppi is being paid twice. Am i right in saying this?

I would also just like to add that the interest was being applied to the loan account monthly, on the full amount including ppi.

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Hi Stark13, and welcome to you. It looks like you may have had a series of consecutive loans, with each one 'consolidating' the previous loan into a later (and probably larger) loan. These loans need to be dealt with sequentially, as the PPI is effectively 'carried forward' to each subsequent loan in the chain. If you can give the details as provided in your post #1 but pertaining to the first loan in the chain, we can start from there.

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Hi Bill, Thanks for your response. I will try my best, as with before, all loans were charging interest every month on the full amount including ppi as it was front loaded. The first loan was a consolidation of an overdraft + cash on top so there was no ppi on the overdraft and this is where the ppi starts:

Loan 1: Taken 29/06/1998
Cash Advance- £1674.51
Repayment of existing debt- £625.49
PPI- £508.32
Total Loan- £2808.32
Monthly Payment- £70.40 (£12.74 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made- 3
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-£2746.87
Interest rate- 18.8APR and 1.45 fixed

Loan 2: Taken 19/10/1998
Cash Advance- £1700.00
Repayment of existing debt- £2300.00
PPI- £869.44
Total Loan- £4869.44
Monthly Payment- £117.69 (£21.01 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made- 11
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-£4187.54
Interest rate- 16.9APR and 1.31 fixed

Loan 3: Taken 12/07/1999
Cash Advance- £1800.00
Repayment of existing debt- £4000.00
PPI- £1205.24
Total Loan- £7005.24
Monthly Payment- £163.15 (£28.07 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made- 13
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-£5913.87
Interest rate- 14.9APR and 1.17 fixed

Loan 4: Taken 25/07/2000
Cash Advance- £2200.00
Repayment of existing debt- £6000.00
PPI- £1871.08
Total Loan- £10071.08
Monthly Payment- £229.56 (£42.65 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made- 9
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-£9029.34
Interest rate- 13.8APR and 1.09 fixed

Ok there was one last loan but i don't have the complete information for that. All the below figures are just me guessing from memory, not accurate at all.

Loan 5: Taken 18/05/2001
Cash Advance- £2000.00
Repayment of existing debt- £9000.00
PPI- £2750.00
Total Loan- £13750.00
Monthly Payment- £309.32 (£70.00 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made- i think probably about 15, then the loan was paid off completely
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-not sure about this but the loan was paid off completely by me then closed
Interest rate- also not sure about this but close to the above

If someone could help I would be eternally grateful. Also it would be great if you could provide a breakdown of your calculations and the ppi calculation for each loan as separate. Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

bump

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Hi Bill, any chance you've had any luck with the above?

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Not yet, Stark. Real life gets in the way. You're in the queue, though.

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

I understand this is quite a long calculation but if anyone could give me advice on how to calculate this myself that would be great!

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Have a read here, Stark. Turboman has been developing a 'tutorial' to explain PPI calculations, and there are some spreadsheet/calculator programs to help with the calculations. You will need the 'SPI' spreadsheet, and need to set it for 'Consolidated' loans. Use a separate spreadsheet for each loan.

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...I-Calculations

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

I have put your figures into 5 spreadsheets now, Stark, and here is my summary.
Loan 1: £ 83.88 PPI refund, with £ 497.20 PPI carried forward to Loan 2.
Loan 2: £ 778.83 PPI refund, with £1175.26 PPI carried forward to Loan 3.
Loan 3: £ 1497.91 PPI refund, with £2009.63 PPI carried forward to Loan 4.
Loan 4: £ 1599.17 PPI refund, with £3479.29 PPI carried forward to Loan 4.
Loan 5: £12515.73 PPI refund, with £4530.39 PPI within the settlement amount included.

This comes to a total 'claim quantum' for the 5 loans of £ 16,475.52

The amount of PPI included in the loan settlements is carried forward to the following loan, and added to the PPI already included in that loan. With Loan 5, I have made the guess that this was originally a 60-month loan, and also guessed at the settlement figure. As this is the final loan in the sequence, the PPI included in the loan 5 settlement is finally reclaimed instead of being carried forward to another loan.

An important point is that a " PPI Rebate " is often included in the calculation of loan settlement figures. This is usually in the form of a credit to the account, and is made to compensate the borrower for any unused PPI cover which has been paid for in the initial loan advance. These rebates are often not easy to identify, and are usually only shown as separate items in the final account statements. Where such rebates have been made, then they must be deducted from the 'carried forward' PPI amounts.

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Hi Bill, thanks so much for this! Really appreciate it. Is that really right, £12,515 for the last loan? Seems very high!

Just to add that I now have some more accurate figures for the last loan, the only thing i don't have is the settlement amount. The adjusted figures are:

Loan 5: Taken 18/05/2001
Cash Advance- £4100.00
Repayment of existing debt- £7900.00
PPI- £2751.69
Total Loan- £14571.69
Monthly Payment- £309.32 (£54.59 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made-31
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-not sure about this but i think it was around £8000
Interest rate- 0.83% fixed per month

Would this massively decrease the figure for the last loan?

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Bill sorry one more thing, i've had a look at the spreadsheet number 5 to try and adjust the figures myself. The only this on the monthly payment section, it doesn't allow me to change the amount of ppi on every monthly payment. Therefore how is the spreadsheet calculating the proportion of ppi on every monthly payment? I already have that as 54.59 for the last loan.

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

ok i've worked it out, you just divide total ppi by total loan amount to find ratio. Can i ask you one thing about the spreadsheet. I want to change the date of claim, as i sent in my claim a while ago, so the interest would be up to that point as they have already partially paid. How do i do that?

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Also, even when i add the rebates in, 12000 for the last loan seems very high. When they calculated it, they got around 4500 for the last loan. I really dont know whether they've made a big blunder here.

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Hi Bill, thanks so much for this! Really appreciate it. Is that really right, £12,515 for the last loan? Seems very high!

Just to add that I now have some more accurate figures for the last loan, the only thing i don't have is the settlement amount. The adjusted figures are:

Loan 5: Taken 18/05/2001
Cash Advance- £4100.00
Repayment of existing debt- £7900.00
PPI- £2751.69
Total Loan- £14571.69
Monthly Payment- £309.32 (£54.59 of which is PPI)
Number of payments made-31
Settlement Amount/Consolidation payment-not sure about this but i think it was around £8000
Interest rate- 0.83% fixed per month

Would this massively decrease the figure for the last loan?

Thanks for your patience, Stark. I've altered the spready to show these new figures, and it actually increases the amount !!! Spready attached.
With Loans 1 to 4, the PPI element within the settlement is carried forward to the next loan. This tends to 'snowball' throughout the sequence, and it affects the 'apportionment ratio' for each loan to the point where this has risen from around 18% to over 42% of the total loan in loan 5. If this loan was settled by a final £8000 inpayment, then 42% of that was PPI. Instead of carrying it forward to another loan, this is added to the 42% PPI you are reclaiming from the repayments made to this loan.

Bill sorry one more thing, i've had a look at the spreadsheet number 5 to try and adjust the figures myself. The only this on the monthly payment section, it doesn't allow me to change the amount of ppi on every monthly payment. Therefore how is the spreadsheet calculating the proportion of ppi on every monthly payment? I already have that as 54.59 for the last loan.

We disagree on this amount at present - but I see you have posted further. You can 'Unprotect' the spready to see the formulae, and I think you may have have found your way past all the IF's I have somewhat amateurishly used !!!

ok i've worked it out, you just divide total ppi by total loan amount to find ratio. Can i ask you one thing about the spreadsheet. I want to change the date of claim, as i sent in my claim a while ago, so the interest would be up to that point as they have already partially paid. How do i do that?

Yep - you got it - 'apportionment' is as simple as that. The interest is usually calculated up until the date of settlement - which is the date of your acceptance of their offer, and not the date of their original offer. But where we are challenging their calculations, then I agree that we may need to set our calculations to the same date. You should be able to simply over-write the Date of Claim cell with whatever date you need.

Also, even when i add the rebates in, 12000 for the last loan seems very high. When they calculated it, they got around 4500 for the last loan. I really dont know whether they've made a big blunder here.

Glad you have found the rebates. You know what you're doing, and I dig that. I hope my explanation of 'snowballing' above makes sense.

I'm certainly no maths geek, but I have learned to use MS Excel to some extent, and to apply what I have also learned about PPI to this. By all means question me, as I appreciate the comments of anyone who isn't scared of spreadies. I will invite my colleague here, Turboman, to check my Loan #5 calcs., as he is a whizz with Excel - and maths in general.

FWIW, I have seen lenders totally ignoring the 'carry-forward' principle, which is stipulated by the FCA, so MBNA's apparent ignorance doesn't surprise me.

[stark13]

Re: Lloyds PPI calculation PLEASE HELP

Hi Bill, thanks so much for your help. I've understood all of the above. I have a feeling they've either calculated it a different way or just calculated it wrong. Do lloyds tend to get things wrong alot in your experience on this forum?

One other question i wanted to ask you is that if you look at my original information about the loans i gave you, i have got my rebate figures from this as there is nothing that specifically says "rebate" on the loan account.
For example on Loan 1, the settlement amount is £2746.87 and the amount of debt carried over to the next loan is only £2300, subtracting these figures gives a rebate of £446.87. Now 497.20 of ppi was carried over to the next loan, this minus the rebate gives £50.22 of ppi carried forward to next loan. Does this sound right to you? Do you remember anyone else asking the question about ppi rebates from lloyds and how they found them?