Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

[DAISYC3CJS]

Hi Beagles, your thoughts on this appreciated. Had a credit card with NBS since 1998 and trying to reclaim PPI. Sent off for a SAR but it does not give me details going back to 1998. The following is part of a reply received from NBS.

"Having completed my investigation, I am pleased to tell you that I have reviewed all the key documents for the sale and on balance, I feel the information provided to you at the inception of the policy in July 1998 was adequate for you to make an informed decision a to whether you wished to take out the policy at the time.

However, from April 2004 onwards a number of the policy details had been amended. We accept you might not have realised the significance of the changes being made and if you had, you may have decided not to continue with the policy.

In order to put you in the position you would be in if you had not continued with your Credit Card Payment Protection Insurance from April 2004, we would liek to offer you a refund of PPI premiums applied to your account amounting to £.... (not much!). In addition, where applicable, interest will be calculated on each of these PPI premiums based on the monthly interest rate applied to your Credit Card over the period. The interest figure will be calculated upon receipt of your signed Acceptance, and paid for a maximum of 28 days from the date of this letter, and is in addition to the refund of the PPI premiums. The total refund will be credited direct to your credit card account"

Well, that's it basically but I'm not happy, have written to them telling them I'm not accepting the offer and also that I no longer bank with them and any monies due to me should be in an account of my choice.

However, I have also found about 12 statements covering various years, so now have also sent these off to them.

Your thoughts/comments appreciated yet again please.

[di30]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Hiya

I would write back and tell them you have not received any details within a SAR you recently received as you stated in your post, and would like to know where they have got the information from for them to come to the decision they made on the account.
And I'm happy to hear you have found statements relevant to those years and agree that you should send copies to them, good for you. I would tell them you have other priority issues to deal with and you was to use the refund for these. Unfortunately if the account is still active, they do tend to use any refund towards the balance and any interest should be forwarded to you, but you can argue the fact (as you have done) to say that it rightfully belongs to you.

However, I am aware that the interest side of it works a little differently to that of a loan ppi interest. I'm sure one of our helpful folks will be able to explain in more detail for you as the calculation side of it is not my area really lol.

[Bill-K]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

I thoroughly agree with Di that they seem to have made a decision based on evidence which does not exist, Daisy. If it does exist, then you should have been sent copies of it in compliance with your DSAR. This also goes against a number of the DISP APP 3 guidelines, in particular:-

" DISP APP 3.2.2 The firm should seek to establish the true substance of the complaint, rather than taking a narrow interpretation of the issues raised, and should not focus solely on the specific expression of the complaint. This is likely to require an approach to complaint handling that seeks to clarify the nature of the complaint.

DISP APP 3.3.1 Where a complaint is made, the firm should assess the complaint fairly, giving appropriate weight and balanced consideration to all available evidence, including what the complainant says and other information about the sale that the firm identifies. The firm is not expected automatically to assume that there has been a breach or failing.

DISP APP 3.3.2 The firm should not rely solely on the detail within the wording of a policy's terms and conditions to reject what a complainant recalls was said during the sale.

DISP APP 3.3.3 The firm should recognise that oral evidence may be sufficient evidence and not dismiss evidence from the complainant solely because it is not supported by documentary proof. The firm should take account of a complainant's limited ability fully to articulate his complaint or to explain his actions or decisions made at the time of the sale.

DISP APP 3.3.4 Where the complainant's account of events conflicts with the firm's own records or leaves doubt, the firm should assess the reliability of the complainant's account fairly and in good faith. The firm should make all reasonable efforts (including by contact with the complainant where necessary) to clarify ambiguous issues or conflicts of evidence before making any finding against the complainant.

DISP APP 3.3.5 The firm should not reject a complainant's account of events solely on the basis that the complainant signed documentation relevant to the purchase of the policy.

DISP APP 3.3.9 In determining a particular complaint, the firm should (unless there are reasons not to because of the quality and plausibility of the respective evidence) give more weight to any specific evidence of what happened during the sale (including any relevant documentation and oral testimony) than to general evidence of selling practices at the time (such as training, instructions or sales scripts or relevant audit or compliance reports on those practices).

DISP APP 3.9.4 The firm should make any offer of redress to the complainant in a fair and balanced way. In particular, the firm should explain clearly to the complainant the basis
for the redress offered including how any compensation is calculated and, where relevant, the rescheduling of the loan, and the consequences of accepting the offer of redress. "

This bunch seem to be a little behind the times, as the queer idea of asking you to accept an unquantified offer fell by the wayside a while back, I believe. You CANNOT make an informed decision on whether to accept a settlement offer without knowing how it was calculated, and what exactly is being offered. With credit cards, you should be offered the PPI of course, plus the portion of account interest which is attributable to the CUMULATIVE total of the PPI and interest accrued over time. Also, if (and ONLY if) the account balance would have been in credit but for the PPI, then you are entitled to 8% Statutory Interest for any month that this 'theoretical' situation would have existed. See example 6 in Appendix 2 of PS 10/12 for an example of this 'Notional Balance.'

Regarding data older than 6 years, this can be a problem - but if you have some data of your own, then this may support an 'estimated' claim. If the lender then supplies data that refutes any reasonable estimate based on your own data, they have breached the DPA by not supplying it.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Many thanks again both - I sent the statements off to them last week. Meanwhile, I have this info which was contained within my Lloyds letter as follows:

Assumptions
Data protection legislation requires us to delete customer information from our files once any legitimate business or legal requirement to retain it has expired. Under normal circumstances we therefore only have a need to keep credit card transaction date for a period of six years as we would reasonably expect that any need to look at the figures, including complaint investigations would arise within that timescale. This retention period is not uncommon across the financial services industry and the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) will be familiar with deletion practices based on this, or similar timescales. As such, if your account has been open longer than six years we may have to make assumptions about the way you have used your card.

If you think that these assumptions do not reflect the way that you have operated your Credit Card please contact us, including any documents you have to support you view.

So, yes I find the above very interesting! Now that I have sent them various statements it should surely get even more interesting hopefully.

Now, with regard to where the PPI refunds should go, I also find this interesting. My account with Nationwide has been closed for some years so I would expect any refunds to go into an account of my choice.

With regard to Lloyds, even although I still have a credit card with them, they at no time said that any ppi refunds would go towards reducing this balance and stated they would pay the refund into my cash account, which I am happy to say they did today. So yes, comments on the above appreciated and again, thank you for all your help.

[Bill-K]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

It looks like they are agreeing in principle to making a refund which will be partly based on estimated figures. I think you should find out - when the refund is calculated - exactly how it was calculated, and how the estimation was made.

If there is no Nationwide account to pay into, then I would expect them to pay you by cheque.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Another update on this one......After I wrote to them on 18th August enclosing copies of statements I had found and also quoting the FSA guidelines in the letter I have heard nothing from them. So I telephoned them today and was told......apparently a letter was sent out to me on the 11th September! Really? I have not received this. However, the chap I spoke to read out to me the gist of the letter. He said it was fairly lengthy but that in short they are still not willing to uphold my claim and that I would have to take the matter up with the Ombudsman. Not sure if you remember, but in July they offered me £796.65 which I declined. So again my learned friends, thoughts/comments appreciated as always.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Another update and need for advice yet again please.

After speaking to them yesterday, I received their rejection letter dated 11th September today (26th Sept.212), this letter was unsigned! I will quote what is in the letter as follows:

Their reasons for rejection are:

"You advised that the information provided to you at the commencement of the policy in July 1009 was totally inadequate as your intention was to become self employed and you became self employed at almost exactly the same time. However, the Credit Card Application Form you completed confirms that at the time you took out the Credit Card and the Credit Card PPI you were in full time employment as a Peronsal Assistant. I have enclosed a copy of the Credit Card application for your reference. (There was no such enclosure with the letter!).

In addition you have stated that you had no actual income to protect. Please note PI is not a form of income protection, PPI was designed to pay 10% of the outstanding Credit Card balance each month, subject to a valid claim, for up to 12 months per successful claim in the event of Accident, Sickness or Unemployment. The policy would also repay the balance on the Credit Card in the unfortunate event of death, subject to the Terms and Conditions.

You have also advised that you were told that the PPI had to be taken out in order for you to obtain the Credit Card. However, the Credit Card Application Form you completed gave you the option to include or decline the PPI policy. You ticked the box which states, "I confirm that I want to protect my card repayments against being unable to work and that I meet the eligibility criteria set out in the enclosed brochure". You had the option of ticking the box to decline the cover, which indicates that the policy was optional and not a condition of the Credit Card. Lastly, you have stated that it was never explained to you that the more you spent on the card the more the PPI monthly payments would increase. However, I would like to draw your attention to the paragraph below your employment details on the Credit Card Application form which states "If you are unable to work you will still be responsible for making your card repayments. For just 60p per £100 outstanding you can protect your repayments against unemployment, accidents, sickness and death....."

So Legal Beagles, how would you suggest I work the next letter to the Nationwide (try & keep in clean lol) I await your comments urgently if possible. In all my dealings with Nationwide they have been unhelpful and a complete pain in the backside. I did of course quote all the necessary FSA guidelines in my letter to them of the 18th August, which they have obviously chosen to ignore!

Look forward to your comments xx

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

OOh very quiet on here?

[Bill-K]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Hi Daisy.

It seems obvious to me that the idiot which replied to you has either not read or not understood the letter you sent. It's basically a template 'fob-off.' Tell them to read the letter properly, and if they didn't understand it or cannot deal with it properly, the refer it to someone who can. They will probably come back with their 'final response,' which means you can then leave it with the FOS.

[di30]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

I agree with Billk, you need to tell them, that they missed the points of your complaint, and have not at all taken any of it into consideration.

It is one of those standard fob off's template letters, so do write back and tell them you expect this matter to be looked into thoroughly and for them to respond by 14 days of your letter.

Good luck.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Yes I will do, although they do state it's a final response - it does seem a real pain to have to go to the FOS when you know dam well you are right and so do they but they just won't have it! Will keep you updated of course

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Another update on this one. After writing yet another letter to the CEO, I have received a reply from an "Exectuive Assistant". My complaint has, apparently been reviewed but yet again, their decision remains unchanged in that all they are prepared to offer me is £796.65 plus interest. This is only a refund of PPI premiums since 2004 and not what I had asked for and feel is entitled, i.e., since 1998!

Yet again, yet another FOS form completed and loads more documents copied to be sent off to the FOS ! Any thoughts?

[di30]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Oh so sorry to hear that Daisy.

Did you send the letter to the CEO of Nationwide? or directly to complaints? (To save me scrolling back on posts, because my computer is very slow tonight).

Just wondered if it maybe worth you mentioning about this matter to the CEO, tell them you don't feel the complaints team taken into account of going back any earlier than the date they state on the letter, and will give them a further 14 days before you consider your next avenue from here.

Do you have all the information going back to 1998? if so then enclose copies, and say if they agreed to the mis selling of your complaint, then they should follow the FSA guidelines of putting you back in the position as if PPI was not included on the policy, but the team have failed to do this for you despite the information you have previously forwarded to them.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Hi Di, yes my last letter was to the CEO and the reply received was as above. I did indeed send copies of some statements I had which included one which I think was my first one in 1998 and a few other statements also. Also told them in previous correspondence and again in the last letter about the FSA guidelines but the appear not to want to take notice and again have only offered the sum of £796! All seems to be falling on deaf ears with Nationwide. This doesn't altogether surprise me as when I needed help from them in past years, it was like talking to a wall, unfortunately this appear to be the case with a lot of large organisations. Hopefully, the Ombudsman may sort this lot out, I really hope so.

[di30]

Re: Daisyc3cjs -v- nationwide building society ppi credit card

Drat!!
Well hopefully the FOS will see this differently, as you do have the information to enclose as well.

So sorry it didnt work for you.
I was going to suggest your local MP as a last resort by asking him or her to write on your behalf to the CEO, if you want to give it one last go, it may work or it may not, as it's worked for some but not everyone, but its up to you. As you know though you have 6 months from the date of the final letter to complain to the FOS