Black Horse Car Finance

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

If what you sent earlier was a formal CCA s.77-79 request, then they are obliged to send you a true copy of the executed agreement. If there is any evidence that what you received was not a true copy, or that it may have been forged, then you may have an unenforceable agreement. It looks to me as though BH have an original copy of the agreement - in which case, it will be legally enforceable.

I'm not sure what they are playing at telling you it's time-barred, though. The clock starts ticking from the time that you could have reasonably be expected to know that you were mis-sold the PPI - and that was only last year !!!

Being a car loan, then there are some differences as to what guidelines the salesman was expected to adhere to - as opposed to other types of loan ("I don't know why...but there it is [Harry Worth]) Since 14/01/05, the responsibility for the selling of PPI on car loans falls with the supplying dealer. In essence, you have to complain to them first. Once they have admitted mis-selling, then it is the finance provider (BH) who you claim the repayment from - as it is they who have taken the money.

You need to get the mis-selling admitted first, and I don't think that BH are helping their case very much by giving you what appears to me to be 'misinformation' at best.

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

If what you sent earlier was a formal CCA s.77-79 request, then they are obliged to send you a true copy of the executed agreement. If there is any evidence that what you received was not a true copy, or that it may have been forged, then you may have an unenforceable agreement. It looks to me as though BH have an original copy of the agreement - in which case, it will be legally enforceable.

You need to get the mis-selling admitted first, and I don't think that BH are helping their case very much by giving you what appears to me to be 'misinformation' at best.

My apologies - on reading my original post, I didn't make it clear. I already had copies of the agreements. They were the original agreements from when the car was purchased. I've never submitted a CCA request to Black Horse. When I filed a complaint about the GAP insurance they sent me copies of the agreements and documents automatically.

My point is this: should the copy of the agreement held by Black Horse (the 'Finance Company's Copy' according to the text at the bottom of the page) be identical to the copy of the agreement held by the Customer (the 'Customer's Copy' and the 'Customer's Second Copy' according to the text at the bottom of the page)? As the Customer Copies did not have the declaration confirming purchase of the GAP and the warranty on it, nor confirmation that they were being bought on finance, I could not have looked at it and questioned why the GAP and warranty were being paid for in the way they were. The copies held by Black Horse did have this declaration on.

(I'll scan the documents and upload them at some point today!)

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

I'll ask an admin to start a thread for you, Fly, and move your posts if they can. They have had to take some temporary measures against spammers, and it has been difficult to start new threads. They will do this for members if asked.

Yes - scan & post the agreements - but it sounds like BH are guilty of 'creative reconstruction,' by the way you describe it. The essential content of the agreement you signed should be identical to the copy you were given when you signed it. If not, then I think this contravenes the CCA, and may possibly render the agreement unenforceable. If BH have sent you a forgery, then we need to get them to dig themselves into a hole, and I think it would be a good move to send a CCS s.77-79 request to them, and see what they send you. It'll cost you a quid and a stamp - well worth it, IMO.

CCA s.77-79 Request Template: Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

If they send you the same 'forgery,' they sent you earlier, then you can show that you weren't given a true copy of the agreement you signed. If they send you a copy of the agreement which YOU have - where the GAP box at the bottom was empty - then they have sent you proof of their forgery, as well as proof that you never agreed to buying the GAP insurance.

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

@Bill-K: Thanks for all of your advice regarding this - it's greatly appreciated.

So, I've attached a couple of files for you to look through:

1) Sales Documents Pink and White are two versions of the sales dockets, purchase orders and invoices from Motorpoint when we bought the car. As you can see, the cost of extras and sundries is added to the cost of the car and the part exchange value and deposit are redeemed from this. You'll see there's no mention of the GAP and the Warranty being on finance.

2) BlackHorseCopy is the finance company's copy of the agreement. I've removed all personal information as appropriate but what can clearly be seen is the declaration at the bottom re. the GAP and Warranty and the finance of it. This was sent to me by Black Horse when I first complained to them about the GAP and Warranty finance.

3) CustomerCopy is the copy of the agreement I took home the day everything was signed, etc. As you can see, the boxes at the bottom where the declaration regarding the GAP and Warranty are have been left blank on it.

4) Customer2ndCopy is another copy of the agreement I was sent a few days later with the official confirmation from Black Horse that my finance had been approved, etc. and detailing repayments. As you can see this too leaves the boxes at the bottom blank.

As there's a maximum limit of 5 attachments to a post, I'll have to attach the letter I received from Black Horse this week to another post. This states their position and claims that I won't be able to appeal via the Ombudsman (although the Ombudsman is already aware of the complaint).

Apologies again to the OP of the thread - I'm going to contact an admin and have it separated off into a new thread.

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

As per last post, the letter from Black Horse is attached.

[di30]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

As per last post, the letter from Black Horse is attached.

Hi

I'm sure Bill will be here in due course.

Just had a looksie at your letter you received from BH now and note the cover was not arranged by them and by a motor dealer, in your case Motorpoint?

You therefore pursue the business for this complaint, as they must have set this cover up at the same time when arranging your policy for your vehicle.

If you still have details of the complaint you previously sent to BH, then write to the car dealer and explain at the same time you have already been informed that this is the matter of the car business to deal with. (Even if you have to send them a copy of the letter you received.)

Meanwhile, see what our Bill suggests too.

Good luck.

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Yeah - do as Di says, matey. I'll try and take a closer look at those docs you posted up tomorrow. A bit late for me now...

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Yeah - do as Di says, matey. I'll try and take a closer look at those docs you posted up tomorrow. A bit late for me now...

Any advice on how to deal with a complaint to Motorpoint? I presume it would be a letter outlining my grievances as opposed to an official form.

@Bill-K: Thanks for the advice thus far. Would be good to know your opinion of those docs for future reference.

Sorry for the delay in replying - am up to my eyes with a PPI complaint against M&S. just had the final response and have been working on my complaint to the FOS. Will start a new thread in the next few days and explain it all. Complete incompetence/negligence/ineptitude on their part.

[di30]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Any advice on how to deal with a complaint to Motorpoint? I presume it would be a letter outlining my grievances as opposed to an official form.

@Bill-K: Thanks for the advice thus far. Would be good to know your opinion of those docs for future reference.

Sorry for the delay in replying - am up to my eyes with a PPI complaint against M&S. just had the final response and have been working on my complaint to the FOS. Will start a new thread in the next few days and explain it all. Complete incompetence/negligence/ineptitude on their part.

Hiya

You could write a letter if you wish, or complete a reclaim questionnaire.

Maybe Bill will have ideas on a letter when he gets the chance etc, if you prefer to write in letter and not use a questionnaire.... but otherwise complete the reclaim questionnaire below, and make your reclaim to motorpoint.
You do get the opportunity to add all your concern, I believe on back of the form/questionnaire, remember to keep a copy as well.

Good luck.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.u...stionnaire.doc

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Just a quick update: I've sought advice from the FOS as well and they've changed their minds. I have to complain to Motorpoint and LTC Compliance (who deal with the insurance and warranty). As far as I can tell this is a grey area so the FOS would prefer to have a complaint lodged with everyone, have it rejected (or upheld) and then move forward with it. Cover all of the bases, as it were.

[bluebottle]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Just a quick update: I've sought advice from the FOS as well and they've changed their minds. I have to complain to Motorpoint and LTC Compliance (who deal with the insurance and warranty). As far as I can tell this is a grey area so the FOS would prefer to have a complaint lodged with everyone, have it rejected (or upheld) and then move forward with it. Cover all of the bases, as it were.

That sounds sensible to me. At least then Motorpoint and LTC Compliance can't turn round and say you haven't given them a chance to put things right.

[miliitant]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

any complaint about the misselling of ppi, warranty must be against the person who sold you that insurance. that would be the dealer who sold you the vehicle, not the provider of the insurance as the dealer is acting as a broker

the dealer would have to provide a statement of means and a statement of price as well at point of sale

if the dealer did not then automatically its misselling

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

(Another) Update: ITC Compliance have been in touch and asked a few questions regarding the policies. It turns out that they aren't liable/responsible for the policy. Prior to 29th January 2007 Motorpoint was directly authorised and regulated by the FSA. Our policies were taken out at the start of January 2007.

I have to say that ITC Compliance were very helpful and before they discussed the issue of responsibility, etc. they said that they would pay out as it had been mis-sold. However, as they were not responsible it's of no use. They've written back to the Ombudsman to point out the relevant entries on the FSA register (which should have been done initially...!) and now we're complaining to Motorpoint directly. I've put together a packet of information for them, including contracts, etc., the information provided at the time of sale, and a statement of charges (to show how much should be refunded). I've also thrown in some information from the FSA regarding mis-selling itself.

I'll let you know how things turn out.

[bluebottle]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Just to get a few things straight, was Motorpoint's FSA authorisation withdrawn on or after 29 January 2007 and, if so, who regulates them now?

[FlySi]

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Morning bluebottle
From what I can tell, they are no longer authorised by anybody (in respect of vehicle financing). Between 14th January 2005 and 29th January 2007 (the period in which the car was bought) they were directly authorised and regulated by the FSA (as per the FSA Register). Quite why the authorisation was withdrawn I'm not sure, but after this date ITC Compliance were responsible and brokered all finance agreements on behalf of Motorpoint.

To the best of my knowledge they are not required to be authorised by the FSA as they are no longer involved in the financing of the car - it's death with by a third party intermediary and they deal with Black Horse (usually).