Black Horse Car Finance

**di30** · 28th March 2012, 18:23:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Hello and welcome to Legal Beagles

I can't really tell to be honest but am aware that GAP insurance is different to that of payment protection insurance.

Do you have the policy details (policy booklet )- of the full terms and conds of the insurance they may have applied?

If not it's never to late to request for this, even if the account is settled, they should send you this on request, you will know for sure what you were paying for then.

However, like any other insurance, if they added it and you did not ask or want it etc, you can I'm sure make a complaint and ask for a refund.

Did find a little info on what GAP insurance is below link, basically if the car was a write off etc....

http://www.moneyhighstreet.com/featu...gap-insurance/

As stated above, try getting hold of the details first though, so we know what direction we can work at then.

**Bill-K** · 28th March 2012, 19:01:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Hi, and welcome to you, Chase. The second scan, showing the agreement is not very clear. If you can re-scan and post it at a higher resolution that might help. However, from what I can make out, there is no PPI mentioned on it. This is backed up by the box on the RH side which lists any interest on PPI - and this is listed as zero.

Thanks Di for the link to the GAP explanation. I don't think GAP is reclaimable, but I really do think that half the cost should be borne by the finance company, as it saves them the trouble of chasing or writing off a debt.

The odd thing about this is that they seem to have pressured you into paying approx. £2000 more than the agreed price, simply because they wanted a larger deposit from you. On the face of it, that looks like a scam, but - unless you can prove otherwise - it looks like the price on the agreement has to be assumed to be the 'agreed price.' That doesn't mean you cannot challenge this, particularly if it may be a widespread malpractice - but if it went to court, then it could be difficult to prove your case. Writing to the head honcho(s), and threatening publicity might be a better bet, I reckon.

Sorry if that's the best I can do - but there may be further comments here later - that's just my own two-pennorth above.

**DidsySith** · 28th March 2012, 20:40:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Okies, in 2003 I took out a car loan via BH.The price of the car was £7995 of which I initially put down a deposit of £299. Now I repaid the loan in 2008 (always on time-no payments missed) it was not until January 2009 that I decided to look into loan insurance.As I did not have the loan document to hand I requested a CCA for the loan.It took some time but BH eventually sent me a photocopy of the loan. Now on their CCA they sent , the loan I had apparently taken out was for £9600. Alarm bells started ringing , I checked the copy of the CCA I received all the figures worked out correct except the font used for the PPI part was different to the rest of the CCA.So I approached BH for an explantion and was told I signed for a £9600 loan only.Now I knew something was wrong but had no proof.Two weeks ago I found the actual CCA and of course the figures were different , the PPI box was checked and PPI WAS added to the loan (front end) I have contacted BH since and their reply is now as the loan was over 6 years ago,tough. I have now sent a SAR to BH but been told the 6 year blah blah blah so will not have much info.I have spoken to BH and they say they have never sent me the copy CCA even though it is a photocopy but had been faxed from department to department as the fax details were included in the photocopy. I shall now await the SAR as at the least the copy CCA and record of payments for the 6 years prior to last week they should have been recorded.

Just to clarify the GAP insurance part as per above.The salesman at the car dealership got me to take out a seperate loan for the GAP insurance at a cost of £845 for 5 years. (People , please check your GAP insurance is for the term of the loan as they seem to sell GAP insurance for only part of it otherwise)

The GAP insurance is to cover any excess cost should your purchase be lost/stolen etc.Basically if your car insurance does not cover the amount of the loan , the GAP insurance will pay the difference.

**Bill-K** · 28th March 2012, 21:59:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Thanks for that, Didsy. That was a strange one. So - your copy of the original agreemen shows that you chose to take out PPI by ticking the box. The copy that BH sent you was clearly a very strange reconstruction at best, showing the same thing. But BH have insisted that you DIDN'T take out PPI - despite sending you this ? Seems to me that you have either been sent a forged document, or been lied to by BH.

I'm guessing that the guy who told you this didn't realise that you have your original agreement, nor that BH had sent you another "true" (??) copy of theirs. I would say that they want to throw you off the scent, in which case, it sounds like you may have a pretty good chance of reclaiming. I would be inclined to get BH to explain VERY CLEARLY - IN WRITING, how they know that there was no PPI on the loan. "Is that what it says on the agreement you have ? - May I please have a copy - here's a quid."

Be interesting to see what they send you THIS time.

As for the 6-year limit - you have 6 years from the time at which you could reasonably have been expected to consider the PPI as mis-sold. NOT 6 years counting backwards from today !!! IMHO, you have a good chance of a successful PPI reclaim.

Regarding GAP insurance - now, that's a good point about it only giving cover for the first 5 years of the loan. It may be possible to reclaim that as well, as this is an aspect of PPI reclaims, where this limitation was not made clear.

This mght well be worth checking out, Chase.

**DidsySith** · 28th March 2012, 23:50:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Nearly there Bill , I had no idea PPI was added till I found the original CCA. I did not ask for it. when I bought the car my girlfriend had just had a baby so my mind was elsewhere and I just rushed everything through as quick as I could. I basically signed the document and paid the monthly installments. It was only when I asked for the CCA that I noticed the loan was for £9600 as should of been for £7700. When I queried this with BH I was told the loan was for £9900 as this was the price of the car. Now as I have found my original CCA along with the receipt for the car (which states Renault Scenic £7995) there is obviously quite a large difference.It seems to me the CCA copy sent was altered so it looked like no PPI was ever added.I shall upload documents when I have received my SAR from BH (I am keeping things on the back burner till I have received everything as I feel this copy CCA is a bargaining tool. Basically if they do not return my PPI payments plus interest plus maybe something to keep my mouth shut I shall then go about issuing proceedings against BH as there is a definite case of fraud here!

Regarding the GAP insurance , I was lucky to get the GAP insurance to cover the entire period of the loan as many take out the policy not realising it would not cover the loan ,say after 3years.I took my gf's brother to get a car recently and the salesman tried to sell him GAP insurance to cover him for 3 years although he was about to take out a 5 year loan. He refused their GAP insurance and took out a separate policy with a third party company which was not only cheaper but would also cover the entire period of his loan.

**Bill-K** · 29th March 2012, 00:26:AM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Aaaah - I mis-read that. So they 'overprinted' the PPI section of the copy agreement with an 'un-ticked' PPI section ? LOL - a rat by any other name would smell as sweet !!! :tinysmile_kiss_t4:

Yeah - keep your cards close to your chest, Didsy, and keep throwing them as much rope as they want. Should be good. Are you at all familiar with the figures side of PPI reclaims ? Might be worth getting that looked into, too, if not.

**CleverClogs** · 29th March 2012, 04:59:AM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Originally posted by DidsySith View Post

Okies, in 2003 I took out a car loan via BH.The price of the car was £7995 of which I initially put down a deposit of £299. Now I repaid the loan in 2008 (always on time-no payments missed) it was not until January 2009 that I decided to look into loan insurance.As I did not have the loan document to hand I requested a CCA for the loan.It took some time but BH eventually sent me a photocopy of the loan. Now on their CCA they sent , the loan I had apparently taken out was for £9600. Alarm bells started ringing , I checked the copy of the CCA I received all the figures worked out correct except the font used for the PPI part was different to the rest of the CCA.So I approached BH for an explantion and was told I signed for a £9600 loan only.Now I knew something was wrong but had no proof.Two weeks ago I found the actual CCA and of course the figures were different , the PPI box was checked and PPI WAS added to the loan (front end) I have contacted BH since and their reply is now as the loan was over 6 years ago,tough.

That's interesting.

Is Black Whores Car Finance trying to refute the claim on the basis of section 5 (link) of the Limitation Act 1980?

Are they not aware that section 32 (link) of that same Act delays the start of the limitation period should there have been fraud, concealment or mistake - or are they merely hoping that you don't know that?

**DidsySith** · 29th March 2012, 19:05:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Originally posted by Bill-K View Post

Aaaah - I mis-read that. So they 'overprinted' the PPI section of the copy agreement with an 'un-ticked' PPI section ? LOL - a rat by any other name would smell as sweet !!! :tinysmile_kiss_t4:

Yeah - keep your cards close to your chest, Didsy, and keep throwing them as much rope as they want. Should be good. Are you at all familiar with the figures side of PPI reclaims ? Might be worth getting that looked into, too, if not.

Yes Bill I have got a good grasp of the PPI amounts as I am using a spreadsheet designed by our very own Turboman! Respect.

**Bill-K** · 29th March 2012, 19:35:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Respect indeed (but don't tell him I said that !!!) - you're in good hands, there, matey.

**chase** · 10th April 2012, 14:52:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Thank you for your reply. As you say there seems to be a malpractice with that particular dealer. While browsing the search engine i did come across many negative reviews about Swindon motor park. As you say they made us to commit for a higher deposit and we ended up buying a used car for more than 10,000 along with the interest it adds up to more than 12900 Pounds. Knowingly i will never commit for such a huge amount. We traveled from Bristol to Swindon at that time i was full term pregnant and after a very long day when the dealer gave us the idea of increasing the car value to improve the chances of getting the loan approved, to be honest it sounded like they were doing us a favor but it was complete deception & it is very sad we became a prey for their crooked business tactics.

I guess black horse has nothing to do with this. But i would like to make a formal complaint about Swindon motor park. Do you think my voice will be heard if i write to the dealer? They do have a complaints process: http://www.motorparks.co.uk/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=003_1 for which they have to reply.

Please see the document attached which is better than the last one

**di30** · 10th April 2012, 15:19:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Hi there

Thanks for posting this up and yes I would raise your concerns with the dealer, as it appears that they would have been liable to have added this anyway, when the policy was sold to you.

Good luck.

**FlySi** · 18th April 2012, 13:42:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Hi everybody

I'll apologise now for 'hijacking' this thread but I'm unable to start a new thread at the moment and the experiences here sound similar to ours.

We bought a car through Motorpoint in January 2007 and it was financed by Black Horse. At the time of buying the car, we were recommended to take out a) GAP insurance; b) a Warranty; and c) PPI. We agreed to the 3 year GAP insurance and the 2 year Warranty but declined the PPI, despite the salesman telling us it would supplement life insurance policies, other savings, provide peace of mind etc., etc. Having signed the documents, etc. when we returned home we called the showroom and took up the PPI.

Fast forward to December last year and we put in a claim to Black Horse for the PPI. This was upheld on the grounds that we could show that we didn't need it (other insurance policies, full pay, redundancy, savings etc.) We also queried the GAP insurance and the warranty but were told this was different to the PPI.

I spoke to the Ombudsman and sought some clarification. When we looked at the paperwork from the dealership, we discovered that we were sold the warranty and the GAP insurance on finance. Looking at the actual sales invoice/docket, the warranty and the GAP insurance were added into the cost of the registration, the plates, shipping the car, etc. (£1149.12 gross) and added onto the cost of the car (£9499) The grand total was £10648.12. According to the sales invoice/docket, the value of our car in part exchange was knocked off the amount to be financed, along with a deposit from ourselves. In total this was £1900 leaving a balance of £8748.12 to be financed. We were under the impression that the amount the extras and sundries (GAP insurance, warranty, registration, shipping, etc) had been paid for with the part exchange value and deposit and had started to pay off the car as well (the balance outstanding was less than the cash price of the car).

We also noticed the finance agreement had insurance included on it. This was the combined cost of the the GAP insurance and the warranty (£798.98) and was spread out over 4 years. Realising this, we complained to Black Horse arguing that if the insurance was for 3 years but I was paying over 4 I would not be covered for a year (the same applied for the warranty which was for 2 years but paid over 4 years).

What appears to have happened is that the deposit and part exchange was deducted from the cost of the car and the sundries and extras but the sundries and extras did not include the GAP insurance and the warranty. These were separated off (despite there being nothing to indicate that this would be so) and financed separately.

Black Horse have today rejected the complaint on the grounds that they acted on the information that they received from Motorpoint. Using semantics, they argue that because the sales invoice/docket combines the extras and sundries into the cost of the car and leaves the section on sundries at zero, then there was no specific commitment to pay off the GAP and the warranty with the part exchange, etc.

Don't get me wrong - we agreed to the GAP insurance and the warranty. My issue is the way in which it was sold and financed. There was nothing at the time of sale to suggest that either of them would be done on finance. Moreover, given that one of the reasons PPI is being challenged and upheld is that the length of payments must equal the term of the insurance.

Black Horse have also sent a photocopy of their copy of the agreement. Like the copy Chase attached above, at the bottom is a little declaration saying that I want to buy it and that it's on finance. On the customer copy that I have (like Chase's 2nd attachment) these boxes are blank. I realise that the signatures wouldn't necessarily be there but could somebody clarify: do the Finance Company copy and the Customer copy have to be identical? Is it permissible to blank out/leave blank information that could be financially beneficial to the customer?

Again, sorry for hijacking the thread but from what I can gather from various forums on the web and consumer advice, everything about this is wrong but trying to figure out who is responsible/liable is like going from pillar to post.

**Bill-K** · 18th April 2012, 17:16:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

Hi FlySi. Car dealers seem to be particularly prone to juggling with the figures to effectively 'cook the books' and confuse the customer. Quite often with PPI reclaims, they will play 'ping-pong' with you, hoping you'll give up and drop the claim. Basically, the mis-selling took place in the showroom, and it is the dealership that must be made to admit to the mis-selling first of all. Once you have that admission, you then have to reclaim the PPI from the finance provider, as it is they who eventually took the money.

I think the customer's retained copy and the lender's copy of the agreement should be identical as far as the pre-printed documentation, but otherwise, I don't think there is any other obligation - with the exception that your copy should be signed and dated by the seller/salesperson/finance provider, and this should be the same as the signee on the lender's copy.

**FlySi** · 18th April 2012, 17:47:PM

Re: Black Horse Car Finance

@Bill-K: Thanks for the reply. In respect of the documentation being identical, where does that leave me legally? Am I in a position to state that the agreement is non-enforceable? (Not that I'm thinking of that, but the legal position would be useful).

Black Horse have also said in their reply that this would not be covered by the Ombudsman as it's out of time. Not sure how they work that one out as the last time I checked 6 years from January 2007 is January 2013. They have suggested that I contact the Financing and Leasing Association or Motorpoint.

I've always been under the impression that the Ombudsman would cover this (and if not the Ombudsman the FSA) and that the same grounds for complaint exist as in the case of PPI.

Black Horse Car Finance

Black Horse Car Finance

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